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Post by /\/\att on Nov 27, 2004 1:08:52 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]Discuss the latest episode 'The Big Dummy' featuring Ventriloquist/Scarface![/shadow]
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Post by TheQuestion on Nov 27, 2004 11:44:27 GMT -5
just started, preatty good!!
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ROBOTRON
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Post by ROBOTRON on Nov 27, 2004 11:45:54 GMT -5
I kinda like the new look so far.
EDIT:
Okay...I liked this one. LOL...Scarface with gold chain and earings....funny...I guess that was done for the target audience of teenagers.
Anyway, easily one of the better episodes, Dummy was cool and so was both Scarfaces...cool robot. I'm partial to robots, though. Wesker was cool too, almost the same as portrayed on previous Batman cartoons.
All in all I give it 8 out of 10.
PS For a minute there, I thought Becky was going to turn out to be somebody in a future episode.
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Post by ProfessorHStrange on Nov 27, 2004 12:18:39 GMT -5
I liked Scarface/ Ventriliquist in this episode. Liked Scarface's look. Did the split personality aspect of Scarface real well. I liked when Bruce questioned himself and Alfred as to the REAL Bruce Wayne. Good Episode! 9 out of 10! ProfessorH !
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Post by BlackBat on Nov 27, 2004 12:19:23 GMT -5
Ok...ummm....when did Wesker become a robotics genius? The episode was going absolutely fantastic up until that point...then we get a giant Scarobot? Wow....if he could build one of those then he really didn't need to steal gold, he could've just built more and sold the patent and he and scarface could've moved to Texas...or Montana.
Apart from the giant killer robot thing, I thought this was a really good episode... I didn't care for the new hipness to the look of scarface (Why do all the gangsters in this cartoon wear a lot of gold and sandals instead of shoes? I thought they were gansters, not gangstas). I was also aprehensive about the computer dating thing, but I'm glad they didn't have Bruce go through with it. It would have been totally out of character.
I hope that when (and if) Scarface returns, they do it with just the puppet, because overall it was a real decent episode for the most part.... except for that giant robot.
~Tim
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Post by HUSH on Nov 27, 2004 12:24:39 GMT -5
Pretty good episode. Scarface was cool. I don't like, tho, how Alfred keeps talking about the "real Bruce Wayne." Batman is the real Bruce Wayne. Bruce Wayne is an act put on by the Batman in public to hide his true identity, Batman. I also don't think he would "rather be" Bruce on a date than Batman fighting crime. I believe that crimefighting is not only Batman's duty, but what he wants to be doing as well, plain and simple. The rest of the episode was good, although this show still hasn't had a truly great episode since Man-bat, IMO, but they'll get there, I'm convinced.
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Christopher Jones
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Post by Christopher Jones on Nov 27, 2004 12:26:43 GMT -5
Given that the new look for Scarface is clearly taken from Pacino's character in the 80's film Scarface, I'm glad they worked in the line about "say hello to my little friend..."
Sadly, the scene showing Wesker in his youth practicing his ventriloquism by reading aloud from a book on advanced robotics was cut for time. (Just kidding on that one...)
Chris
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Post by BlackBat on Nov 27, 2004 12:28:21 GMT -5
LOL @ Chris. Too Funny man, that made me spit out my drink ;D
~Tim
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Post by jasontodd2 on Nov 27, 2004 12:30:39 GMT -5
What's up with Scarface pronouncing his "B's" ? That was always the best part of his character. Ow well, I thought it was a really good episode, I like the interaction between Bruce and Alfred, great stuff there.
I think it was cool that Rino was one of Scarface's henchmen just like in the comics.
The episodes are getting better and better each week.
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Post by TheQuestion on Nov 27, 2004 12:37:53 GMT -5
Given that the new look for Scarface is clearly taken from Pacino's character in the 80's film Scarface, I'm glad they worked in the line about "say hello to my little friend..." Sadly, the scene showing Wesker in his youth practicing his ventriloquism by reading aloud from a book on advanced robotics was cut for time. (Just kidding on that one...) Chris I personally thought the scarface ref line was a little tacky, but whatever. overall this one proved the shows worth to me, cant wait for next week!
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Post by re on Nov 27, 2004 12:41:27 GMT -5
I Liked this episode, the dialogue was great, and Scar-face's new design was awesome.
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Post by BullocK on Nov 27, 2004 12:41:52 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]This was a good episode. I thought Scarface's image was similar to Al Pacino's in dress, glad to see I was right. As for the robotic Scarface towards the end of the episode, it was alright. My only question being how Wesker was controlling it..they didn't really make that clear enough.
The online dating subplot worried me at first. Granted it was a bit funny, but like Blackbat said, seemed a little to out of character. Thankfully Batman realizes that in order for anyone to get to know the "real" him, he would have to reveal who he is. The ending was perfect, as Alfred tells the date that Bruce is married..to his work. Pan to an overhead shot of Bruce perched on the top of a building, surveying all he protects. Very well done![/shadow]
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Post by Batdan on Nov 27, 2004 12:59:19 GMT -5
I like that at the series goes on, they're playing up Bruce's inner conflict more frequently. Since he's still new at this, he's still learning what he's sacrificing to become The Batman. I don't agree that Bruce necessarily wants to be Batman. Rather, he's compelled to do it.
All in all, I think these conflicts lend a further air of tragedy to the character and I like that the writers are dealing with this.
As far as Scarface himself, I was never a big fan of the character so I don't have a strong opinion about how he was presented. But I do think that giant robots are rather silly, no matter what.
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Post by TheJoker on Nov 27, 2004 13:03:08 GMT -5
I liked how they continue to screw around with Scarface. In almost all the scarface episodes so far he gets destroyed or hurt by machinery. This one had that. So im happy. Nothing bad to say.
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Post by reideen1313 on Nov 27, 2004 13:09:02 GMT -5
I really enjoyed this one! Of course, any ep that has a big robot is going to be getting top marks in my book! ;D I thought the "evolution" of Scarface was logical.
Yes, we've never seen a side of Wesker that showed him as being a robotics genius, but who's to say that he only has 2 personalities or 'alters'? In fact, studies have shown that most people with multiple personality disorder have anywhere from several to 10 to hundreds of 'alters' - there have even been reports of people having thousands of 'alters'. It's entirely possible that one of those other personalities has some background in robotics.
This created a Scarface that actually looked like it was a threat to Batman. In the past, I've always considered him as a joke - not really even worth watching the ep/reading the story because everything that could be done with the "mob boss" character has been done. Scarface gets gang together, tries to pull heist, Batman stops heist and occasionally destroys Scarface - but he'll be back in the same lame story sometime in the future. The Scarface in The Batman doesn't need a gang - he is the gang. ;D I can't wait to see Scarface again on the show - and I want a Robo-Scarface action figure with a little Wesker sitting in his hand!!
Like they've been doing with the other characters in The Batman, the creative team is taking the best parts of these characters and amplifying them to make them better.
Another interesting plot point that has been running thru the past couple of episodes is the duality of the Batman/Bruce Wayne character and the realization it appears he is coming to that he must sacrifice Bruce Wayne in order to accomplish what he wants to do as the Batman. I think this is going to lead to something bad in a future episode. To me, Batman has always been about the delicate balance of the two sides of the character. I would like to see more of Becky. She might help provide some of that balance, even though many people will scream that it's too much like a Burton movie.
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Post by BlackBat on Nov 27, 2004 13:20:15 GMT -5
Like they've been doing with the other characters in The Batman, the creative team is taking the best parts of these characters and amplifying them to make them better. I don't know if I agree with that reideen. I know that they're breaking down the villains and simplifying them. Distilling them, if you will, but I'm not certain that makes them better. Sort of an off topic example, but look at the poor reception the Scarebeast got in the comics. For the most part the fans hated it. Sometimes the reason things last in the first place is because they don't need that much change. I will agree on the point though that it's great to see the duality and sacrifice that you mentioned being brought into play more. That will definately prove interesting if they care to explore it further. ~Tim
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Post by DarknessFalls on Nov 27, 2004 13:30:06 GMT -5
.... except for that giant robot. OK... I do admit, the "giant robot" thing is pretty pethatic, but what do you expect? Scarface pull a gun out and start shooting? This is another one of those kids shows, and the robot is one of closest thing to a good script that we can get with this show. However, I don't think that Wesker is the mind behind building the robot, he's the muscle and Scarface is the mind.
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Post by BlackBat on Nov 27, 2004 13:35:17 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind seeing a gun pulled out and some shooting going on. It happened in the Catwoman episode, so it could have happened here as well.
~Tim
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Post by Peev34 on Nov 27, 2004 13:45:59 GMT -5
[shadow=blue,left,300]As the episode progressed, I thought this may end up being the first episode that I was going to be disappointed in. Not because of Scarface, whom I thought was fantasically done, but because of the sub-plot with Bruce's date. I kept thinking to myself, "There is no way he should go through with this as NO version of Batman would give this a thought". BOY, DID I SPEAK TOO SOON! Glad to see that it ended with him choosing his duties as The Batman over being out on a blind date! The ending with him overlooking Alfred cancelling his date was VERY WELL DONE! It did an excellent job of not only establishing Bruce's priorities, but showing Alfred's disappointment with his life choices, no matter how supportive of them he is. Always good to see that the creators of the show are ultimately staying true to the mythos!
Scarface was AWESOME! I loved the Al Pacino references throughout! Outside of the robot, which I actually liked, I felt that the essence of the character was kept very much in tune with the scarface we know and love, save for a few MINOR details.
Excellent episode! I can't wait to see more Scarface![/shadow]
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Post by DarknessFalls on Nov 27, 2004 14:14:35 GMT -5
I wouldn't mind seeing a gun pulled out and some shooting going on. It happened in the Catwoman episode, so it could have happened here as well. ~Tim YEAH, I would hope so too.
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Drizzt2218
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Nov 27, 2004 15:15:12 GMT -5
Now THIS was a great The Batman episode! I don't know where to begin. First, I'll start by saying that Robert Goodman (the writer) has always done a fantastic job scripting the heroes of the DCU (Batman, Superman. Batman Beyond, fan-favorite series The Zeta Project, and recently JLU) but I have to say that I found myself enjoying this more than any of his other recent work...Goodman GETS Batman. He understands the character, he genuinely seems to love the character, and he wrote arguably the best TNBA episode ever (with Paul Dini) "Growing Pains." And oh yeah, fun tidbit, he also wrote "Double Talk," the only The New Batman Adventures episode to feature...you guessed it, Scarface. I was thrilled to see that Goodman kept Scarface's henchmen, Rhino and Moxy. I used to love those guys in the classic series, and their personalities (or lack thereof) were perfectly translated to The Batman--as was Wesker and Scarface, who again, were perfectly written here. Everyone was spot-on, and I loved the little touches of Bruce hiding behind a computer to meet someone...it might be out of character for Bruce, but then, it was Alfred who set it into motion. It is not unreasonable to me that a younger Bruce might at least humor Alfred and talk to this girl while hiding on the computer--especially since he later acted in-character when he both questioned just "who" the real Bruce is (great lines, too, and a great question) and then had Alfred politely let her know he wouldn't be showing up. That last shot of Batman, and that last line, were perfect. Giant Scarface was also pretty cool and I like that it actually made sense in the context of what they were doing...he was built for a reason. Who knows who built him? It wasn't important to me, because we see that his purpose was to steal the gold. There's little doubt that once the task is done, Wesker will go back to the little Scarface, as usual. I loved Scarface's final line, too. Hilarious, and perfectly in-character. I don't know why people would want to see a small, generic shoot 'em out ending...this series really is about taking the classic elements of the villains and then amping them up. The stakes are raised by the robot, and hey--if we got the duality talk and strong characterization, I think we can afford to the kids in the audience their giant robot and great action scene. This show is doing a bang-up job lately. "The Man Who Would Be Bat" was fantastic, "The Big Heat" was fantastic, "Q & A," despite a few misgivings I had concerning the plot and characterization, was still a good episode, and "The Big Dummy" was again, a fantastic episode. I'm gonna have to give this episode a 9/10, or an "A" grade, all around. With recent episodes like "TMWWBB" "TBH" and "TBD," I am one very happy Batman fan, indeed. --Larry
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The Dinoboy Wonder!
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Post by The Dinoboy Wonder! on Nov 27, 2004 16:53:48 GMT -5
I kinda like the new look so far. EDIT: Okay...I liked this one. LOL...Scarface with gold chain and earings....funny...I guess that was done for the target audience of teenagers. Anyway, easily one of the better episodes, Dummy was cool and so was both Scarfaces...cool robot. I'm partial to robots, though. Wesker was cool too, almost the same as portrayed on previous Batman cartoons. All in all I give it 8 out of 10. PS For a minute there, I thought Becky was going to turn out to be somebody in a future episode. um..im a *shrugs* adolescent, and i don't wear ridiculous golden things lmao...cept the tooth ;Dj/k umm..i..missed it...
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Schemes
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Post by Schemes on Nov 27, 2004 17:04:17 GMT -5
This was a great ep, a 9 out of 10, at the worst, an 8.5. The "robot" Scarface through me off, and it didn't add much, I would've preferred to see him shooting a tommy gun, haha....but I like the Wesker schitzo assumption from Bats, and I also like the Bruce/Becky side story, and how it doesn't work out...hah, just adds a little more to the citizen/city atmosphere of the show...
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Drizzt2218
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Nov 27, 2004 17:37:28 GMT -5
Ya know, with today's censors, I wouldn't hold your breath so far as seeing tommy guns, or anything that even resembles a "regular" gun, on this series. It's the same reason we won't see any frozen dead wives, or Joker Toxin that kills. It simply cannot be done on a Saturday Morning Cartoon anymore.
Besides, it seems like people want to see classic gangsters, detective stories, film noir--but that was Batman: The Animated Series. That isn't the angle this series is going to take. We might see some modernized gangster types (I love that Scarface was directly inspired by the 70's-80's era of mobster, as embodied by Al Pacino in "Scarface), we might see some detective work, we might even get a little noir now and then--but it won't be a focal point on this series. One of the biggest themes of this series is classic horror, actually. If B:TAS was film noir, The Batman is classic Hammer Horror. And to that end, one thing we haven't thought much about--what's more horrific than a dummy taking control of the ventriloquist? The giant robot really just took that to its logical extension, with Wesker being the puppet. It was a neat visual that lead to an exciting action scene.
Anybody can write "And then Scarface starts shooting at The Batman!" but we've seen it a MILLION times. How many times have we seen Wesker/Scarface actually pose a PHYSICAL threat to the Dark Knight?
This episode had everything. It had dramatic pathos, a psychological villain, gang/mob elements, dynamic action, crisp dialogue, great voice acting....I don't see why it's so wrong to find a unique way to have Scarface actually go toe-to-toe with Batman, and give the kids watching something interesting for *them* to see as well? They covered the schizo angle for us adults, and they gave the kids a great foe as well.
This episode is easily one of the best from this series, and everything I could hope "The Batman" to be.
--Larry
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Post by TJM on Nov 27, 2004 18:25:47 GMT -5
I thought this episode was very well done. I've always liked the Ventriloquist and Scarface and this episode didn't really change their characterization much so I was happy. Okay, they decided to make Wesker someone who is capable of building a robot but I didn't really mind that since most of this episode was very similar to the Scarface episode from the Dini and Timm animated series called "Read My Lips", so I thought the robot helped to give it an ending that was much different from what we've seen before. I also didn't mind the change in Scarface's appearance, when I first saw it I hated it, but I realize that the show's creators are trying to modernize the looks of the characters for the kids that are watching the show and when they hear Scarface I'm sure they picture the character portrayed by Al Pacino and not a 1940's gangster. I personally would prefer the gangster look over the "gangsta" look but I can live with the change. At least Scarface didn't speak like a gangsta rapper or have a really bad fake cuban accent.
One thing I noticed about this episode was the quality of the animation of Batman himself, it might just be me but I thought he looked better in this episode than he did in any previous episode. I always love this shows animation but I just thought this episode was even better than usual.
I did have a couple of problems with the show the first, of course, being the whole online dating subplot, I just don't think Bruce would be willing to waste time trying to find a date while Scarface was on the loose, with Batman the mission always comes first. I'm just glad that he didn't actually go on the date and I did like Alfred's line about Bruce being married to his work, I just don't think the subplot was neccesary in the first place. Now to the thing that really bugged me about this episode, and that was Bruce wondering whether or not Batman is his dominant personality. I'm sorry but I don't think Bruce sees himself as a split personality, Batman is his only personality, Bruce is just the face he puts on in public. I don't like it when writers have Batman question his own sanity, I don't think that''s something he would do, In fact I think he sees himself as the only sane person in a crazy world.
My few complaints aside, I did think this was one of the better episodes of this series so far, and I look forward to seeing what's next, even though it will probably be a while before we see a new episode.
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Drizzt2218
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Nov 27, 2004 19:56:34 GMT -5
I have to disagree with a few points I've seen repeatedly made about this episode.
First, we don't know for certain that Wesker built the robot. He may very well have, or he may have paid others to build it.
Second, Batman *wasn't* preoccupied with dating this woman. When he was on his mission, that was all he was focused on. The only time he "chatted" with her was when he had a few moments on the computer, and only at Alfred's urging/insistence. I see Alfred as being the one who constantly is trying to get Bruce to experience a normal life, and I see Bruce as having enough respect for him to at least give it a shot. Ultimately, he decided that he could not pursue anything with her, and Alfred had enough respect for Bruce not to push the issue. Besides, note that when he wrote to her, he was still hiding behind a computer--a computer can be just as much of a mask as the one he wears as The Batman. The internet is all about being anonymous, you know? He didn't exactly put himself out there for this woman, he gave it a shot for Alfred.
Third, and this is something a few people have said, is the term "gangsta." That simply isn't accurate. In the 70's and 80's, this is what mobsters looked like. This was the face of the "New Mob" if you will--which is what we also saw Rupert Thorne attired in, as well. I get a very "Scarface," "Casino," and "Donnie Brasco" vibe from these mobsters, and it's a unique approach to differentiate from the classic 40's look of B:TAS. I wouldn't expect to see anybody dressed like the mobsters from B:TAS, which existed in a more timeless world, because The Batman is very much about updating and modernizing the mythology...the closest thing to a "dated look" on this series would happen to be these retro-looking mobsters.
And last, it's a mistake to say that Bruce is just a mask that Batman wears. At least so far as this series is concerned, Bruce is who Batman is...this series has taken great care towards mining the Bruce Wayne character, making the stories about Bruce first, and Batman second. I don't think he was questioning his sanity when he asked which personality was his dominant one...at this early in his career as The Batman, I think it's a logical question/crisis for him to have--Who is he? He isn't just the Dark Knight, any more than he is a vapid playboy. So just who is Bruce Wayne? Is he someone who can enjoy his life, who can, ultimately, lead a normal life? Or is that darkness, that obsession that drives him to don the cape and cowl, who he really is? If he's going to even consider letting someone into his life, that's a question he must figure out. Ultimately, it seems clear he came to some kind of answer...by choosing not to let someone in.
--Larry
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Post by HUSH on Nov 27, 2004 21:26:27 GMT -5
And last, it's a mistake to say that Bruce is just a mask that Batman wears. At least so far as this series is concerned, Bruce is who Batman is...this series has taken great care towards mining the Bruce Wayne character, making the stories about Bruce first, and Batman second. Well, as I've said, my personal belief is that there is no Bruce, just Batman. I believe that the lighthearted, warm Bruce Wayne died at age 8, and since then, there has been only the cold, tormented loner, Batman. I think it should be Batman first, Batman second. ;D His work, his passion, is always calling, and he is not a "swinging bachelor," a playboy, or any sort of person who would enjoy socializing in any form, IMO, as he is a loner, and won't let anyone in. When he takes of his cowl, he is still Batman; he is always Batman. Thus, I think it is rather absurd to try to develop the Bruce Wayne character, as I don't believe Bruce Wayne to be anything other than the true mask, while The Batman is the true identity, IMO. Sure, he can enjoy things, but they will be things Batman would enjoy, because he is Batman. Also, if he were to have a romance, I like to think that it wouldn't be a result of online socializing, rather a bond shared with someone he has known for a long time, whom he can relate to. I don't think a romance of Batman's would be outright, but built up over time. For instance, his recent feelings for Catwoman in the comics has been the result of years upon years of, little by little, conflict turning to consolement. It would take a lot to make Batman love someone, is what I'm saying. But back to the matter at hand, believe me when I say that the last thing I want to do is compare The Batman to B:TAS, but in this case, I'll use it as an example. One big thing I loved about B:TAS was that the show, for the most part, displayed Batman as who he was when not pretending to be a goofy, swinging bachelor/ playboy. Tim and Dini really got Batman's personality down, and I'd love to see that from this series. Then it would be pretty darn close to perfect. And sorry about the really long post. ;D
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Drizzt2218
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Nov 27, 2004 23:14:47 GMT -5
First, a minor correction. Earlier I wrote that we didn't know if Wesker built the robot or paid someone else to build it. I should clarify what I mean more. Yes, it's obvious that *he* built the robot. But we don't know if he paid someone for the designs, or if he stole the designs. Or even the possibility that one of his other personalities (we can probably assume there are at least a couple lesser personalities floating in that head) is a scientific genius. It may very well also turn out to be that Wesker, before turning crazy, was a robotics expert. But the point is, and I should have said this earlier, is that we don't know how he came to have the ability to construct the giant Scarface, so all we can really do is give hypothesis after hypothesis--if this is really keepin' ya up at night. Hush, ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree with you--except that this version that you're citing is the one that came after Frank Miller's revamp. From the 1970's until the mid-80's, it was always portrayed that Bruce was who Batman "really" is, and they went to great lengths to humanize Bruce and focus on his character--such as when he dates Silver St. Cloud (and even lived in a flat). So, it really depends on which version you enjoy more, and I appreciate both. It's clear The Batman is striking a tone similar to those 70's stories, though--not just in terms of how they portray Bruce, or where he's living, but also in the overall plots, structure, and tone of the series. --Larry
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Post by HUSH on Nov 27, 2004 23:48:30 GMT -5
Hush, ordinarily I'd be inclined to agree with you--except that this version that you're citing is the one that came after Frank Miller's revamp. From the 1970's until the mid-80's, it was always portrayed that Bruce was who Batman "really" is, and they went to great lengths to humanize Bruce and focus on his character--such as when he dates Silver St. Cloud (and even lived in a flat). So, it really depends on which version you enjoy more, and I appreciate both. It's clear The Batman is striking a tone similar to those 70's stories, though--not just in terms of how they portray Bruce, or where he's living, but also in the overall plots, structure, and tone of the series. That is areally good point! I didn't realize that about the 70's. I guess I'm just a Miller-nut. I just wish they would add some of the elements of his revamp to the 'toon, because right now it's pretty much relying mainly on those 70's ideas about Batman. Thanks for teaching me more about the history of the psychology behind Batman. I guess, then, that it's pretty safe to say that B:TAS more closely followed the ideas of the Miller revamp than the '70's concept you spoke of? Anyway that's very interesting, I appreciate you broadening my view of Batman ideas.
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Karottop510
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Post by Karottop510 on Nov 28, 2004 0:06:04 GMT -5
I really like the episode! The character of Scarface really intrigued me... he really had a mind of his own... and once again, Alfred's character continues to intrigue me...
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