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Post by wayneson on Jul 14, 2009 22:14:27 GMT -5
I don't understand these statements; her Rachel? Both actresses played the same character. These statements seem to indicate that neither of you understand MAJOR elements of Nolan's story. Yes, they played the same character, but apparently they like Maggie's portrayal/interpretation better than Katie's. That's what he's saying...That Katie was so annoying, they wish her character would've died Yes Professor, I understand that...but Rachel Dawes was an original character, she had no comic book profile or history to live up to, so Katie Holmes' portrayal of the character was Rachel. In an earlier post I noted that Nolan (and Goyer) invented the character, cast the role, and directed Holmes' performance. Katie played Rachel the way Nolan wanted her played; a naiive, awkward, and overmatched idealist. She (along with Alfred, of course) is in the story to keep Bruce connected to humanity; in effect, to his parents. Of course she failed to project authority, of course she seemed too young and overwhelmed, etc., etc. Her views of justice, and a belief in the inherent good in people, is shown to be outdated and irrelevant in TDK. But, as Nolan wrote her, that was the character.However, the point of my original post had nothing to do with any of this.
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Post by BruceBatman on Jul 16, 2009 21:09:18 GMT -5
I totally made me cry. I mean Rachel was totally made for Batman!She's the only one of Batman's girlfriends that appeared more than one movie! It was devastating! Not to mention how she died! And she died instead of Harvey who just takes that and turns into something evil.
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Post by wayneson on Jul 16, 2009 22:12:55 GMT -5
I totally made me cry. I mean Rachel was totally made for Batman!She's the only one of Batman's girlfriends that appeared more than one movie! It was devastating! Not to mention how she died! And she died instead of Harvey who just takes that and turns into something evil. Yeah, it was shocking, then it was really sad because I immediately thought "...well, that's it for Bruce - there's no way he can be just be a man now, that dream is over..." It is the biggest single turning point in his life after the death of his parents, and the most important narrative element in TDK.
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Post by MuksC on Jul 17, 2009 13:24:21 GMT -5
as was said earlier, the fact that the actress changed between movies diluted the emotional connection the audience had with the character, and so you don't care as much because you don't necessarily associate the new portrayal of the character with the "original" portrayal, and so in some strange way, it doesn't feel like the same character.
saying that, even if Katie had been in TDK, i wouldn't have cared that she died, as she was woefully mis-cast and annoyed me everytime she was on the screen.
is it true that Holmes was "forced" upon Nolan and the Begins team from the movie studio? maybe at the request/influence of Tom Cruise? i'm sure if Nolan had free reign he would have been able to find a better actor than her, someone more suitable for the role and more of a match age-wise for Christian Bale. i read somewhere that if Nolan wanted free reign on most of the movie elements, he had to comply to certain studio requests, casting Holmes being one.
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Post by All Star Batman on Jul 17, 2009 14:03:43 GMT -5
as was said earlier, the fact that the actress changed between movies diluted the emotional connection the audience had with the character, and so you don't care as much because you don't necessarily associate the new portrayal of the character with the "original" portrayal, and so in some strange way, it doesn't feel like the same character. saying that, even if Katie had been in TDK, i wouldn't have cared that she died, as she was woefully mis-cast and annoyed me everytime she was on the screen. is it true that Holmes was "forced" upon Nolan and the Begins team from the movie studio? maybe at the request/influence of Tom Cruise? i'm sure if Nolan had free reign he would have been able to find a better actor than her, someone more suitable for the role and more of a match age-wise for Christian Bale. i read somewhere that if Nolan wanted free reign on most of the movie elements, he had to comply to certain studio requests, casting Holmes being one. She didn't even start dating Cruise until a month before Begins was released.
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Post by Eric on Jul 17, 2009 18:20:02 GMT -5
I cried when Optimus Prime died.
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Post by MuksC on Jul 18, 2009 13:16:00 GMT -5
as was said earlier, the fact that the actress changed between movies diluted the emotional connection the audience had with the character, and so you don't care as much because you don't necessarily associate the new portrayal of the character with the "original" portrayal, and so in some strange way, it doesn't feel like the same character. saying that, even if Katie had been in TDK, i wouldn't have cared that she died, as she was woefully mis-cast and annoyed me everytime she was on the screen. is it true that Holmes was "forced" upon Nolan and the Begins team from the movie studio? maybe at the request/influence of Tom Cruise? i'm sure if Nolan had free reign he would have been able to find a better actor than her, someone more suitable for the role and more of a match age-wise for Christian Bale. i read somewhere that if Nolan wanted free reign on most of the movie elements, he had to comply to certain studio requests, casting Holmes being one. She didn't even start dating Cruise until a month before Begins was released. well in that case, Nolan and co. were way off the mark in casting Holmes for the role, there were many better actresses around who would have made the character come to life in a more realistic way and would have then gone on to be in TDK too, which wouldn't have messed up the continuity between the 2 movies.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Jul 20, 2009 12:39:10 GMT -5
I think MuksC is the closest to my thought on the subject. The character is great. There was nothing wrong in the way she was written. It is just so weird that with such acting talent as Christian Bale, Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, and the rest of the cast, that they would have such a prominent weak link in the cast as Katie Holmes.
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Post by wayneson on Jul 21, 2009 11:23:43 GMT -5
Everybody seems to accept that Nolan somehow "tolerated" (either through pressure from WB or Tom Cruise, depending on whose post you read) a sub-par performance from Holmes; this makes absolutely no sense to me. He directed the film, and what is on the screen is what he wanted on the screen. He wrote and directed the character exactly how he wanted the character to be in the film. I'm wondering why folks can't entertain the concept that Holmes' performance was perfect for Rachel; again, the daughter of a maid, she was naiive, overwhelmed, often awkward, and ultimately doomed. Even though her character has matured in TDK, after her harrowing experiences in Begins, her idealism and trust in Gordon's officers still ultimately proves to be her undoing. She was never meant to be Lois Lane.
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Post by BruceBatman on Jul 23, 2009 18:48:50 GMT -5
Thank you wayneson, you seem to have my thouhts summed up exactly! And I agree with your previous post too! That is totally right that it could have destroyed Bruce instead of Harvey! That could have been him, because it's just visiting his parent's deaths again, and that could have demolished him from the inside, because after her, all he has in his life's inner circle is Alfred!
Oh, and MusksC, I don't think that the switch in actresses diluted the the liking of the character at all! I think the crew of the movie did a great job in picking another actress that looked and acted just like Katie Holmes, and while any Batman fan can still tell the difference, it's not such a big deal. I think it flew very smoothly between the movies.
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Post by batman1973 on Jul 23, 2009 19:18:02 GMT -5
I cried when Optimus Prime died. Same here.
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zx16
Gotham Tourist
Posts: 15
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Post by zx16 on Aug 25, 2009 22:03:27 GMT -5
I didn't cry I didn't care at all when she died. Rachel was to me someone to make Harvey Dent two face and keep Bruce somewhat Human. But your also forgetting that Lucis Fox is sort of a human connection too in a way. I think some other character would have been good for something like this other then Rachel. I'm talking about the character not the actor here.
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Post by blackmask on Sept 13, 2009 15:35:33 GMT -5
it was more dramatic than tragic, no.
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