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Post by Jed Raven on Jul 11, 2008 4:27:13 GMT -5
wouldnt it be nice to have stories where Bats just went after the usual supervillains and crooks instead of these earth shattering/does batman live or die/ type stories. keep it simple and exciting and accessible for a wide range of readers. It would. When Stan Lee indulged in such 'pandemonious puffery' in the 60s, yes, it was to shift copies, but it was also endearing. Nowadays it just seems cynical, yet another act of desperation in the face of a waning readership.
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Post by havedunter74 on Jul 11, 2008 4:55:02 GMT -5
indeed!! batman should be gritty and realistic. i think that DC are losing touch with the real comic fans. they need to take batman back to his routes.
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Post by DrGreenEvil on Jul 11, 2008 5:12:51 GMT -5
indeed!! batman should be gritty and realistic. i think that DC are losing touch with the real comic fans. they need to take batman back to his routes. I don't even think its really that. Comic book companies just need to stop thinking that the only way to sell comics is to have these "earth shattering" mega events. Doing this would also help attract new readers because the new readers won't feel like they would have to read years of back issues just to get whats going on right now.
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Post by havedunter74 on Jul 11, 2008 7:07:04 GMT -5
i have that problem cos i have lost touch over the last 6 years and have missed out on loads of reading so all i do now is buy graphic novels. theres no way i could afford to try and catch up with all the reading i have missed out on. Im not a fan of the "earth shattering" events. i like it simple but interesting.
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Post by anthonywayne on Jul 11, 2008 9:34:03 GMT -5
Nice to see that so many of you feel this way.
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Post by jlavaia on Jul 11, 2008 11:06:55 GMT -5
i feel i have to jump in here now. if you want stand alone stories of Batman vs. villain read Detecive Comics. also it should be noted, that once R.I.P. finishes Morrison is planning on doing alot of stand alone and 2 part issues. every so often a big event engulfs Batman's world and for the most part they are usually fantastic stories (i.e. Knightfall, NML, Fugitive/Murderer, Officer Down, War Games, Return of Ra's, Knightquest, etc). this is one of the first Batman Universe spanning arc that isnt good. parts of it should be, like Return of Hush, but for the most part this is a cash grab.
there is a thread for Detective Comics, where you can all discuss good stand alone issues. we get the point that the 5 of you dont like this arc or any other big Batman arc and are happier with Batman stories from the 70s and 80s. i love Batman stories from that era, but i also love alot of newer stuff. NML, War Games, and Fugitive/Murderer are three of my favorite Batman stories ever and they are all multipart, with revelations and what not. can any of you 5 who hate those kind of stories truly say that any of those 3 tales were bad? there is no need to continuously bash this arc. yes, it's not great, but it will get better.
and also, stating how much you love stand alone stories really has nothing to do with this thread and is way off topic. feel free to start a Stand Alone Story Appreciation Thread or something along those lines, but let's get back to talking about this arc.
i understand the need for Morrison to try to put his mark on Batman, but making up one of his own villains would have been sufficient, or bringing back an older villain. instead we get about 10 villains who will never be used again (thank god) once Morrison leaves the title. yes, Simon Hurt is an older character, but he just doesnt fit as a long term foe and he's just a lame character.
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Post by Jed Raven on Jul 11, 2008 12:42:57 GMT -5
i feel i have to jump in here now. if you want stand alone stories of Batman vs. villain read Detecive Comics. And I feel I have to jump in here, in return; nobody mentioned 'stand-alone stories' until you did! there is a thread for Detective Comics, where you can all discuss good stand alone issues. we get the point that the 5 of you dont like this arc or any other big Batman arc and are happier with Batman stories from the 70s and 80s. I have no overall preference for any decade in Batman stories. If I HAD to choose one, it would probably be the nineties, as that's when I became a regular reader of the trades. This was the era of 'Knightfall', 'Knightsend', 'Contagion', 'Legacy', etc, so I'm hardly against multi-part stories. i love Batman stories from that era, but i also love alot of newer stuff. NML, War Games, and Fugitive/Murderer are three of my favorite Batman stories ever and they are all multipart, with revelations and what not. can any of you 5 who hate those kind of stories truly say that any of those 3 tales were bad? there is no need to continuously bash this arc. I've not bashed this arc. Why would I? I'm not even reading it. I recall enjoying all the stories you mention to some extent (I've only read them once). NML had it's peaks and troughs though. (Well it would, being so vast a story.) i understand the need for Morrison to try to put his mark on Batman... But this is the problem now. EVERY writer who comes on board a title feels the need to 'make their mark'. And more often than not making their mark entails some ridiculous 'shock twist' that negates previous continuity and only serves to further muddy the waters for new and would-be fans (stand up JMS and the Norman Osborn-Gwen Stacy tryst). And what happened in that instance? They realised they'd effed everything up so badly that they undid the past twenty years of continuity! I can't see why writers 'making their mark' can't mean simply telling good, down-to-earth stories (multi-part or single issue, take your pick) that alienate neither long-term fans or people just dipping their feet in the waters for the first time. They needn't always resort to sub-soap opera 'evil twin/ characters returning from the dead'-type crap to sell issues. I'm pretty damn tired of it, to tell you the truth...
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Post by jlavaia on Jul 11, 2008 15:02:24 GMT -5
I completely agree. I was being tempted to read this. But then I read how in a future issue, the villains were going to put forth "evidence" that Alfred is really Burce's father and other crap like that. Hopefully its just a ruse by the villains to throw Batman off. But still. Why does every comic have to have some kind of earth shaking shock to it. Whatever happened to just stories. One of the reasons I don't read comics and just watch the tv shows. DrGreenEvil @ Jed Raven : the quote above is where the topic of stand alone's came from. he mentioned that he wanted just stories and the 4 of you agreed with him. any multi-part comic is a story-arc. a stand-alone issue is just a story. so that's where that came from. there hasnt been any shocking twists or revelations in Batman R.I.P. so far, so you are completely off topic complaining about that kind of stuff occuring in comics. it hasnt occured in the arc that this thread is for. and you stated that you're not reading this arc. i can understand that, but just create a new thread if you want to discuss something, dont try to change the topic of a thread with a new topic. Spider-Man and how he is written has nothing to do with Batman. there is a Spider-Man comic thread in the Off-Topic section of the site. lastly, basically only 2 writers have written the title, Batman, in the past 2 years, Judd Winick and Grant Morrison (with occassional fill-ins). Winick left his mark and he did a tremendous job. i cant think of a single issue that he wrote for the title that wasnt good. as for Morrison, he's done the opposite of the things that you are all complaining about. you all keep saying that the writers change things and undo continuity. Morrison made sure that a story that was debated about being in continuity for years, was solidified as canon. he aged Damian appropriately and the arc made sense and it didnt screw up any continuity. so Batman has not fallen victim to the stuff that you guys are speaking of in quite a few years. i'm enjoying this discussion, but start a new thread and we can take it there, let's leave this thread for discussion of the story-arc, "Batman: R.I.P.". i'd love to talk about older Spider-Man stuff, go to the off section and find that thread and start the discussion. i'm not the biggest Spider-Man fan, but there are alot of them here at this site. let's leave the Batman section for Batman.
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Post by havedunter74 on Jul 14, 2008 2:56:25 GMT -5
sounds like i've hit a nerve with some people. i never said i didnt like the big 6 part stories lines,i just dont think its neccesary for wriers trying to"make there mark" introduce uninteresting bad guys that no one cares about, because i find it strange that the joker,penguin,two-face etc...... have tried for years to take out bats then some guy form nowhere turns up and destroys batman. maybe they should kill batman off and re-start from the beginning. it seems to be getting bogged down with sub-standard charcaters with no personality.
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Post by jlavaia on Jul 14, 2008 8:43:00 GMT -5
sounds like i've hit a nerve with some people. i never said i didnt like the big 6 part stories lines,i just dont think its neccesary for wriers trying to"make there mark" introduce uninteresting bad guys that no one cares about, because i find it strange that the joker,penguin,two-face etc...... have tried for years to take out bats then some guy form nowhere turns up and destroys batman. maybe they should kill batman off and re-start from the beginning. it seems to be getting bogged down with sub-standard charcaters with no personality. Morrison didnt create Simon Hurt. he's an older character that Morrison brought back. the only characters he created were a few of the Club of Villains characters, but not even all of them he created and they're basically just henchmen. Morrison hasnt introduced any new characters that have destroyed Batman or have even attempted to, aside from lackeys. it seems that you are getting issues that the rest of us are not, as nothing you mentioned above in any way pertains to "Batman: R.I.P.".
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Post by All Star Batman on Jul 14, 2008 11:18:36 GMT -5
maybe they should kill batman off and re-start from the beginning. That's exactly what the fans don't want to happen.
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Post by havedunter74 on Jul 15, 2008 2:32:23 GMT -5
Lets see how RIP turn out and come back and discuss it. im intrigued to see whether it is an earth shattering event or if it will be a massive let down.
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Post by anthonywayne on Jul 15, 2008 8:30:55 GMT -5
Lets see how RIP turn out and come back and discuss it. im intrigued to see whether it is an earth shattering event or if it will be a massive let down. Good idea - folks r gettin a little fired up here...
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Post by jossy99 on Jul 24, 2008 5:51:36 GMT -5
i used to read the comics all the time but now i see how much they have changed i dont think i would understand whats happening so much has changed since i last read them
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Post by jasontodd2 on Jul 29, 2008 8:29:43 GMT -5
For the most part I am enjoyng the RIP storyline (lil confusing with the order of comics), but I will admit as much as I respect and love Grant Morrison's work, I don't feel as though this is his best work.
I really enjoyed his run with the Son of Demon Saga (or what ever it was called, I can't remember the exact name) that was great.
Quick question though, for the most part the RIP storyline runs in Batman, and the other titles are kind of different storylines that tie in some how? Because I was a little confused when going from Batman to Detective to Robin, it felt like different stories. But I am getting it with Batman.
I just wish that they could keep stories within the title. If they need to help boost sales with Robin or Nightwing or even The Outsiders, they should do something great in those titles.
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Post by jlavaia on Jul 31, 2008 14:15:31 GMT -5
For the most part I am enjoyng the RIP storyline (lil confusing with the order of comics), but I will admit as much as I respect and love Grant Morrison's work, I don't feel as though this is his best work.
I really enjoyed his run with the Son of Demon Saga (or what ever it was called, I can't remember the exact name) that was great.
Quick question though, for the most part the RIP storyline runs in Batman, and the other titles are kind of different storylines that tie in some how? Because I was a little confused when going from Batman to Detective to Robin, it felt like different stories. But I am getting it with Batman.
I just wish that they could keep stories within the title. If they need to help boost sales with Robin or Nightwing or even The Outsiders, they should do something great in those titles. the stuff from the other books are just sub arcs that run off the story in Batman. agree this is not Morrison at his best, and i really see this ending badly. Morrison has been known to completely ruin characters and future storylines and forces other writers to make countless retcons and changes. see R.I.P. being the death of normal Batman. it's the last real Batman story, which is a shame, b/c it's not good. he doesnt care about Batman or the related characters and doesnt get the character either. hence why once Final Crisis ends, we'll see Batman with powers, or Batman as an african-american (dont laugh, he brought back most of the New Gods that way). it's obvious that Batman will play an integral role in Final Crisis, seeing as how he's only the second hero to get captured and experimented on. and he's locked up with Kamandi, a Kirby creation, which means that he'll be involved in the ending and may end the Crisis. on another note, Morrison cant be stupid enough to kill Batman. if he kills him, then the next writer on the title or Dini in Detective, bring him back and make it seem like it didnt happen. Morrison will get mad and leave DC. it's the exact same thing that happened to him at Marvel when Claremont brought back Magneto after telling Morrison not to kill him (which he did anyway). we'll have to see what happens though.
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Post by DrGreenEvil on Aug 1, 2008 0:19:42 GMT -5
Glad I never started reading this. Read the recap on wikipedia. SO incredibly stupid. And I also fear this will end very, very badly. This is why I don't read comics and just stick to the tv shows and movies.
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Post by havedunter74 on Aug 1, 2008 6:49:48 GMT -5
same here, i only buy graphic novel's and TPB's. if batmans "dies" and comes back with powers or whatever then Mr. Morrison shall be very unpopular. If they kill him off and bring him back thats fair enough but dont destroy what is the best comic book icon in the history of comics
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Post by Batlaw on Aug 1, 2008 17:14:00 GMT -5
Strangely, I really just want this storyline to be done with. Ya'know, get to the point and get whatever the "pay off" or "reveal" is over with. Its not really doing anything for me and if it doesnt come around and come together well, soon, and in a big way, Im going to be really repelled and P.O'd personally.
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SuperPa
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 198
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Post by SuperPa on Aug 1, 2008 17:41:23 GMT -5
Does anyone have the feeling that its going to end with Thomas Wayne turning up and being alive all along and that he was behind it all,or something else just as bad? ?
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Post by jlavaia on Aug 1, 2008 17:44:42 GMT -5
Strangely, I really just want this storyline to be done with. Ya'know, get to the point and get whatever the "pay off" or "reveal" is over with. Its not really doing anything for me and if it doesnt come around and come together well, soon, and in a big way, Im going to be really repelled and P.O'd personally. i agree. unfortunately we probaly wont see any changes until December when Final Crisis ends. R.I.P. takes place before Final Crisis, and ends first and Batman was his normal self in Final Crisis until he was captured. what changes come about from the experimentation we'll have to see.
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Post by havedunter74 on Aug 4, 2008 6:03:16 GMT -5
Im totally confused!!! I cant wait to see the outcome,just to get it over and done with.
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Post by jlavaia on Aug 4, 2008 8:22:04 GMT -5
Does anyone have the feeling that its going to end with Thomas Wayne turning up and being alive all along and that he was behind it all,or something else just as bad? ? i really cant see that happening. it's just not something that would or should occur. unless Morrison wants to contradict his own writing, nothing super serious will happen until after Final Crisis.
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Post by havedunter74 on Aug 4, 2008 8:52:24 GMT -5
what earth is the current batman on? is the idea of killing batman off and "resetting" him a viable option? would DC consider starting over again from year one and trying to pull in new readers off the back of the dark knight? i couldnt imagine a comics universe without Batman. I wouldnt think Warner Bros. would kill off one of their big moneymakers.
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SuperPa
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 198
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Post by SuperPa on Aug 4, 2008 10:40:09 GMT -5
Its new Earth,and Their not going to kill Batman,they said that they wouldn't.
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Post by jlavaia on Aug 4, 2008 11:51:20 GMT -5
what earth is the current batman on? is the idea of killing batman off and "resetting" him a viable option? would DC consider starting over again from year one and trying to pull in new readers off the back of the dark knight? i couldnt imagine a comics universe without Batman. I wouldnt think Warner Bros. would kill off one of their big moneymakers. Batman is on New Earth, currently in Bludhaven trapped and being experimented on inside the Command-D Bunker. he is not dying and being restarted. there is said to be some changes that are going to occur due to the experimentation, which may result in Batman having some powers. this will hopefully be temporary, and hopefully wont occur, but it's looking like that. R.I.P. wont change anything and it's just a marketing ploy that backfired on them. the original idea was for R.I.P. to be finished before Final Crisis began, that didnt happen, Final Crisis began and Batman is normal and fine, which tells us that R.I.P. wont change Batman at all. Final Crisis is where any changes, if any, will happen.
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Post by All Star Batman on Aug 4, 2008 12:17:45 GMT -5
what earth is the current batman on? is the idea of killing batman off and "resetting" him a viable option? would DC consider starting over again from year one and trying to pull in new readers off the back of the dark knight? i couldnt imagine a comics universe without Batman. I wouldnt think Warner Bros. would kill off one of their big moneymakers. Batman is on New Earth, currently in Bludhaven trapped and being experimented on inside the Command-D Bunker. he is not dying and being restarted. there is said to be some changes that are going to occur due to the experimentation, which may result in Batman having some powers. this will hopefully be temporary, and hopefully wont occur, but it's looking like that. R.I.P. wont change anything and it's just a marketing ploy that backfired on them. the original idea was for R.I.P. to be finished before Final Crisis began, that didnt happen, Final Crisis began and Batman is normal and fine, which tells us that R.I.P. wont change Batman at all. Final Crisis is where any changes, if any, will happen. Powers? Batman's not supposed to have powers. That's what makes him cool.
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Post by jlavaia on Aug 4, 2008 12:56:20 GMT -5
^ exactly. but there has been talk that it's what Morrison wants. so he'll give him powers in Final Crisis. then no one will buy Batman. he'll be fired from the book and it will get retconned by the next writer. there's just been talk of it, that's all. it's really doubtful that it'll happen and i doubt Dan Didio will let it happen. he could just want Batman out of the way for the story so he sticks him in the Evil Factory with Kamandi and doesnt have to deal with him. we'll have to wait and see. but the Evil Factory from Apokolips was used to train, brainwash, and enhance the powers of the Female Furies, so i cant see the new one in Bludhaven being any different. obviously Batman is about impossible to break, but that could be what R.I.P. is leading to. Morrison sets it up in Batman and then concludes it in Final Crisis. we'll have to see.
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Post by havedunter74 on Aug 5, 2008 5:08:17 GMT -5
if Batman is given "powers" by Morrison then Morrison should go and shove his own head up his a*se and quietly go back to the little hole he crawled out of. Admittedly some his past stuff is good but to do that to Batman is just plain STUPID!!!!!!
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Post by havedunter74 on Aug 6, 2008 4:42:23 GMT -5
i heard that the plan is for Bruce Wayne not to be Batman anymore? If this is true then that is completely stupid. Its not alll about the suit,its the man that wears the suit that makes Batman who he is.
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