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Post by jasontodd2 on Jan 9, 2006 9:25:28 GMT -5
I was watching Batman Forever last night, which is a pretty good Bat Film, and I was thinking to myself... Self why didn't Val Kilmer return for Batman & Robin? Does anybody know the real story behind Kilmer not being in the fourth film? I thought he did a pretty good job, and I am curious as to why they went with George Clooney over Val Kilmer. The only thing I can think of is Val Kilmer is a bit of a problem on set and makes alot of demands and is a hot head... other than that I am baffled because this is probably the largest grossing movie Val Kilmer has ever done and starred in.
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Post by Batlaw on Jan 9, 2006 11:35:22 GMT -5
This has recently been discussed in another thread (which I cant find at the moment)... who knows the real or complete story, but from my understanding Etc. Val opted out of B+R to star in "The Saint" which he had more personal investment in by way of a more lucrative "back end" deal (similar to Nicholson's from the first Batman). Val hoped and gambled on The Saint becoming it's own succesful franchise ala Batman / Bond Etc, which it did not. But thats just what I remember hearing all over the place at the time.
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Post by jasontodd2 on Jan 9, 2006 13:42:01 GMT -5
Thanks, a hero for you. And who knows Batman & Robin might have had a better shot with Val Kilmer coming back, because George Clooney just wasn't Batman in any way shape or form!
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Post by /\/\att on Jan 9, 2006 15:18:02 GMT -5
Thanks, a hero for you. And who knows Batman & Robin might have had a better shot with Val Kilmer coming back, because George Clooney just wasn't Batman in any way shape or form! I understand what batlaw said to be true. Personally, I think Kilmer makes an ok Batman, but a terrible Bruce (he's too grim) and Clooney makes a GREAT Bruce, but a terrible Batman (he's too playboy). Its always been my feeling (prior to BALE) that Bruce and Batman should be played by two different actors, as a metaphor for the split personality.
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Post by jasontodd2 on Jan 9, 2006 16:13:53 GMT -5
Thanks, a hero for you. And who knows Batman & Robin might have had a better shot with Val Kilmer coming back, because George Clooney just wasn't Batman in any way shape or form! I understand what batlaw said to be true. Personally, I think Kilmer makes an ok Batman, but a terrible Bruce (he's too grim) and Clooney makes a GREAT Bruce, but a terrible Batman (he's too playboy). Its always been my feeling (prior to BALE) that Bruce and Batman should be played by two different actors, as a metaphor for the split personality. That would have been a great solution and could have worked. Would you have liked to have seen Clooney as Bruce and Kilmer as Batman in B & R? Or somebody else stepping in as Batman? Perhaps Keaton might have returned.
Clooney will always be Dr Doug Ross from ER in my mind and that head bobbing thing he does has always bothered me. He does have the good looks for the playboy Bruce Wayne, but Batman he wasn't.
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Christopher Jones
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Member of the Bat-Comic Industry
Batman Strikes Artist Christopher Jones, Causing Minor Injuries.
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Post by Christopher Jones on Jan 9, 2006 16:16:15 GMT -5
I think that with either Kilmer or Clooney it's not a matter of the capability of the actor, but rather of the script and the intent of the director. When I first heard Clooney had been cast as Batman, I had seen him in Three Kings and thought he was going to be amazing in the role. But by B&R the franchise had completed it's descent into camp begun in Forever under Schumacher (although I hate to call it camp - camp should be FUNNY). There had been talk at one point of Patrick Stewart playing Mr. Freeze before it went to Ah-nuld. While that's a tantalizing prospect, if he had been forded to deliver the same awful dialog and lead his henchmen in a sing-a-long while wearing the polar bear slippers and sparkly blue bathrobe would it really have been any better?
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Post by All Star Batman on Jan 9, 2006 16:28:24 GMT -5
I heard that Kilmer couldn't take how Schumacher took the direction in the film and quit. And I agree that Clooney is ok as Wayne, but Kilmer was better as Batman than him. Bale's the best though.
Little side note, did you guys know Christian Bale tried out for the role of Robin in Batman Forever?
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Post by MuksC on Jan 9, 2006 18:09:09 GMT -5
no I didn't know Bale tried out for Robin in Forever.
and did you know Bale wore Kilmers suit in the screen test for Begins? he said it was a little tight for him.
i also heard/read that Val was very awkward on the set, a bit of a "diva", and so they sacked him as much as he left of his own accord to do The Saint.
while watching the SE version of Forever yesterday, i wondered what it would have been like if Keaton had indeed continued.
its good that he didn't in a way, because his reputation is unaffected by Forever and B&R, while Schumacher and Clooney/Arnold get all the stick, but i wonder that if he did sign up for it, he would have been able to tone down Schumachers flamboyance and fixation for neon.
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Post by BatmAngelus on Jan 9, 2006 20:18:45 GMT -5
From what I heard, All Star Batman is on the money- Kilmer and Schumacher didn't get along at all and even had shoving matches. I've also heard that Kilmer and Schumacher were on the WB backlot (Kilmer for Alexander, Schumacher for Phantom of the Opera) and they refused to speak to each other. There's yet another rumor that Kilmer read the first couple pages of the script....and then put it down after reading about Batman in ice skates.
Who knows what happened, but I've believed that he broke apart from the series because of his rift with Schumacher.
I've read about the Bale-auditioned-for-Robin at IMDB and Wikipedia (who seems to have their movie trivia info from IMDB), where I presume you found this out, All Star Batman. As he's stated in interviews I've read, Bale doesn't like the character of Robin very much nor did he like Schumacher's direction in the Batman films. Plus, wouldn't he have said anything in interviews regarding that if it were true? (Please note, I'm doubting IMDB's info, not you yourself, All Star Batman. As I've discovered in recent years, IMDB is not the #1 most reliable place for accurate information, although it's pretty accurate in filmographies and cast listings. Just not so in trivia or future films. It had Sam Neil listed for Doc Ock in Spider-Man 2 before Molina was even cast!)
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Post by Batlaw on Jan 9, 2006 23:17:43 GMT -5
Does it really matter? Regardless, even though I or anyone may prefer Kilmer to Clooney, does anyone think B+R wouldve been any better?
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Post by /\/\att on Jan 10, 2006 0:04:39 GMT -5
Does it really matter? Regardless, even though I or anyone may prefer Kilmer to Clooney, does anyone think B+R wouldve been any better? Oh, I dunno...if they just fired the director, re-wrote the script and changed up all of the actors, it might have had a chance!
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Post by The Dark Knight on Jan 10, 2006 22:46:33 GMT -5
Thanks, a hero for you. And who knows Batman & Robin might have had a better shot with Val Kilmer coming back, because George Clooney just wasn't Batman in any way shape or form! I understand what batlaw said to be true. Personally, I think Kilmer makes an ok Batman, but a terrible Bruce (he's too grim) and Clooney makes a GREAT Bruce, but a terrible Batman (he's too playboy). Its always been my feeling (prior to BALE) that Bruce and Batman should be played by two different actors, as a metaphor for the split personality. Too bad we couldn't mix and match huh?
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Post by jasontodd2 on Jan 11, 2006 12:21:41 GMT -5
Thanks for all the info on Val Kilmer and what was up, it was something I was really wondering about after watching Batman Forever the other day, and wanted to know why he didn't return, and now I know, so thank you all.
It's great to hear that Kilmer wasn't up for the direction of what Joel had in mind for Batman after the ice skates stuff, Kilmer gets points for that, but losses them all for being a "DIVA" Thanks Again L.O.G. ers
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Sileas
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 92
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Post by Sileas on Jan 12, 2006 20:02:27 GMT -5
ok here's me checking in late.... making my useless comments..... ;D
I liked VK in forever---his interpretation is what got me interested in batman, but there it's stayed---i'm not actually an all-around batman fan. *runs and hides* but neither am I a VK fan. just put the two together and I'm interested!
but my opinion is that VK couldn't have saved B&R. I agree that it was a combo of director and script, and somewhat actor. actors do what they're told (well, usually!), and if he couldn't tone down the garish neon of BF, he couldn't have had much effect on B&R. at first I was sad that he wasn't going to be doing it again, but after seeing B&R (and i've only seen it once, in the theater, and I need see it no more, thank you), I'm glad he didn't.
but really, I believe only the major players (schumacher and kilmer and maybe 1 or 2 other cast/crew) will ever know what went on in that set and why he didn't come back. certainly there is tension on a high-profile set, especially with an over-the-top theme, and i'll bet there was some shouting and body checking going on. If I had to guess, I'd say it was a combination of all of the reasons cited above that he didn't come back, with the lure of the saint and the shumacher/kilmer conflict being primary.
....so I'll just go write my OWN sequels with him in the role! ahhhh, the liberating freedom of fanfic! ;D
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darkclaw
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Post by darkclaw on Feb 9, 2006 10:34:47 GMT -5
Hmm...guess I'm a little late also on this, but I know where y'all can find the answer to the Val question.
If you watch the B&R SE DVD. On the second disk about 5 min 10 sec into the Documentary Shadow of the Bat: Part 6, Val states on camera that he signed up for "The Saint" but the agency didn't tell him production for B&R was starting within the year. Joel S. also says that he wasn't made at Val for not doing B&R, he was upset at the production agency for waiting till the last min to tell Val.
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Sileas
Legions Of Gothamite
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Post by Sileas on Feb 10, 2006 18:34:59 GMT -5
*cowers* please understand, I'm not doubting you darkclaw, but .....sounds like a slickly thought up explanation. i'm not doubting you, and the idea sounds fine, but..... ps edit hang on a second. you put that disc into your player? and actually watched it? bleah. did you clean your dvd player after that?
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darkclaw
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Post by darkclaw on Feb 10, 2006 23:27:25 GMT -5
I totally understand Sileas, I'm just stating what they both stated on camera. Sure it sounds a little fishy, but it looks like that's the "official" stance on it. As for the comment on putting the DVD in my player....I never said I watched the movie, I said I watched the documentary on disc 2
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Sileas
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 92
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Post by Sileas on Feb 11, 2006 12:05:07 GMT -5
;D understood! but do go have some alcohol after that. just to clean the senses out, y'know.
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darkclaw
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 249
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Post by darkclaw on Feb 12, 2006 12:18:18 GMT -5
One Bat-tonic coming up!
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Post by arkhaminmate on Mar 24, 2006 11:55:52 GMT -5
Make it a double
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