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Post by Batman Prevails on Jul 9, 2005 1:57:56 GMT -5
I've read a couple of complaints about Holmes or her character respectively by fans and critics alike. Personally I don't get what the problem is.
Acting-wise Holmes did a great job and I also like Rachel's character she's neither the bimbo Elle MacPherson played nor the horny muse from Forever. She has the same goals as Batman, just reinforces them differently. Another thing I like about her that she's not the typical damsel in distress, keep in mind that she was the one who defeated the Scarecrow while Bats got flamed by him.
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing her in the sequel.
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Post by jasontodd2 on Jul 9, 2005 7:13:39 GMT -5
The only thing I want to see about Rachel Dawes in the sequel is her grave stone!
I think she rubbed everybody the wrong way in the sense of how she has promoted the movie. She had a big oppurtunity here to really help out in promoting this movie when asked about it, but what does she do instead? She promotes War of the Worlds (which I won't see) And she isn't really that strong of an actress, what she really needs to do is head back to the Creek and stick to what she is good at, and that is tv!
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Post by beyondreal on Jul 9, 2005 10:20:39 GMT -5
the hate is there cos she was put in because warner brothers wanted a love intrest, her role shud have been harvey dent but again wasnt to be. She is great in the movie no doubt but clearly a though away character that wasnt going to return which was a pitty it would have been nice to see her return in the sequels as the reaper or phantasm and make batman question his reasions.
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TheKingpun
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 215
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Post by TheKingpun on Jul 9, 2005 11:20:35 GMT -5
Katie Holmes doesn't bother me but I'm not a big fan either. I really liked the Rachel character though.
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Post by thedarkestnight on Jul 9, 2005 11:21:37 GMT -5
Katie Holmes as Phantasm?! As Darth Vader would say, "Nooooooooooooooo"
I accually liked Rachel's character, and Katie Holmes as well. What she did on the film, a great job IMO, shouldn't interfere with the mistakes she made on the real world.
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Post by DarknessFalls on Jul 9, 2005 12:32:21 GMT -5
Katie Holmes did a good job in the movie, but I'm going with how wrong she promoted the movie and the criticism of how weak her acting is. I felt that she took away the spotlight from the movie itself.
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Post by Batman Prevails on Jul 9, 2005 14:55:39 GMT -5
Actually that film needed a love interest to make everything flow. Dent would have been a nice touch but not for the overall outcome of the film. We'll get enough of Dent later.
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Post by reideen1313 on Jul 9, 2005 17:52:14 GMT -5
For those that are saying that Rachel took the place of Harvey, you do realize that a city can have more than one District Attorney, right? More than just one person works in that office - it's very possible that Harvey was in Begins and we just didn't know it....
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Post by Robin on Jul 9, 2005 21:16:44 GMT -5
She was fine in the movie. But as everyone said, we hate how she promoted War of the Worlds. But I'm glad most people said that WOTW sucks anyway. I'm not going to go bother seeing it.
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Post by Batman Prevails on Jul 10, 2005 0:38:13 GMT -5
I don't care if her relationship with Cruise promoted WOTW, it doesn't effect her performance in the film. And if you are that promotion-concious you have to realize that the realitionship promoted Begins as well among publics who were unaware of or barely interested in Begins. Everytime Holmes was mentioned in the gossip news her role in Begins was covered. This way the movie was brought to the attention of publics other than us hardcore fanboys.
The only thing I criticize is the rumour that she said she would more forward to WOTW than BB. But than again that's only a rumour.
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Post by beyondreal on Jul 10, 2005 2:36:16 GMT -5
while she did end up gd in the movie you have 2 admit she does represent something that was fake aobut the movie. She was only put in there cos warner brothers wouldnt let them make a film without a love intrest and this showed in the film it was pretty obvious she was out of place espeically alot l8ter in2 the film. I still think warner brothers could get very greedy again and ruin future films with there demands aswell. For example in the nxt film we shud really be seeing selina kyle but warner brothers will probobaly say no because of the poor reception catwoman got. instead where gonna get another throw away girl in probably the form of silver st cloud. The 1 Girl I would think cud actually make a gd throw away would be Sasha Boudaux.
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Post by Batman Prevails on Jul 10, 2005 4:21:41 GMT -5
Rachel was not out of place in that film, everything she did made sense. An example for a character that's out of place would be Max Shreck. Why would a department store owner deal so much with politics? Because that role was originally supposed to be Harvey Dent and the explosions in the end led to his scarred face but WB realized Williams from the first movie was a casting blunder so they avoided that plot.
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TheKingpun
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Posts: 215
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Post by TheKingpun on Jul 10, 2005 9:17:40 GMT -5
I was always under the impression that Harvey Dent was dropped from Batman Returns because they thought that Harvey beeing a crooked businessman wasn't the right direction to go, but I could be wrong. As for when Billy Dee Williams was replaced in Batman Forever, that was a case of star power over powering "continuity".
But back to Rachel. To me she was the window into old Gotham. I was always under the impression that Gotham was always a bad town, but Begins showed that it was going in an upward direction. Then the Waynes got killed and Gotham went downhill again. Rachel seemed to be the representitive for what it used to be. For the whole marketing issue, I think that WB is solely responsible. Whatever people Katie Holmes brought to War of the Worlds barely made a dent (he he he sorry). People were going to flock to a Steven Spielberg and Tom Cruise movie even if it was Breakin 3: Electric Boogalee. WB didn't market it's own movie nearly as well. I personally only care if it makes enough money to get it's sequel, which it safely did.
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 10, 2005 10:54:23 GMT -5
well Im going with the shamless promoting of WOTW.she totally ignored questions about Bale and Michael Caine on Irish TV in favor of how Scientology changed her life and how much WOTW is going to rock(which it certainly didnt).the intrerviewer Ryan Tubbrity had to ask her to "get back'to Begins which she looked quite irritatted at so she deserves the hate. Rachael-totally superflous throwaway character inserted because the movie was short of any strong female presence(WB has as much as admitted this).and the character predictably found out who Batman was-Yawn neither Holmes or Rachael impress me to be honest
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Post by Faithfulbutler on Jul 10, 2005 17:31:34 GMT -5
To be honest i would just prefer no love interests in the Film,not that it's going to happen unfortunately.I enjoyed the Restaurant scene with Bruce playing the flippant Billionaire Playboy with a couple of Girls.How many times have you seen something like that in the Comics?It keeps the focus more on Batman and without that old"revealing the identity"scenario that keeps popping up.Nolan and co fixed everything else this time around,why keep that identity scenario in? If they really want love interests go with Selena or Talia,keep it in context and stir it up.Just my 0.02 cents.
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greg
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Le grille? What the hell is that?
Posts: 139
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Post by greg on Jul 11, 2005 0:16:43 GMT -5
i think she should return, she did a good job and i thought it was nice to see a good actress, not some sexed up like in the other videos. and so what if she talked about another movie? shes not a slave to Batman.
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Post by BullocK on Jul 11, 2005 1:04:27 GMT -5
and so what if she talked about another movie? shes not a slave to Batman. [shadow=red,left,300]True. But when was the last time you saw an actor or actress in an interview talking about movies other than the one they are currently starring in? [/shadow]
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Post by BaTfReAk25 on Jul 11, 2005 2:54:46 GMT -5
she was ok.....i dont really have n e complaints........ok she promoted WOTW........ok wow......but her character should have been someone in da cartoons or comics.....
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Post by Batman Prevails on Jul 11, 2005 6:12:10 GMT -5
Excuse me but how did SHE promote WOTW? Did she actually say "I'd rather see WOTW than BB" and can a valid source verify that? She promoted WOTW as much as Cruise promoted Begins. This is how it works: Newspapers state "Batman's love interest Holmes is currently dating Cruise who stars in War of the Worlds" or they write "War of the Worlds star Tom Cruise is in love with Katie Holmes who's the female lead in Batman Begins"
Both movies benefit from the relationship since they promote each other.
If she showed up at the WOTW premiere, she's entitled to and it doesn't matter since the promotion of Batman Begins' theatrical has ended weeks ago.
If anything goes wrong promotion-wise with Holmes it's not her fault but the fault of WB's PR team who failed to brief Holmes in on the do's and don'ts which should have been part of her contract. But as far as I'm concerned there hasn't been a blunder yet.
Image Bale rocks up to the premiere of X-Men 3 and states that the movie rocked will you guys give him the same sh*ts you give Holmes?
I think the whole Cruise/Holmes relationship boosted the success of Batman Begins because that hook-up promoted Holmes from the Ex-Dawson's Creek chick to Hollywood's celebrity A-list. Many people who initially had no interest in Batman whatsoever, went to the movie because of her. Bottom line is there are more people out there who are drawn to 'People' and 'EW' than to an American pop culture icon.
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Post by BullocK on Jul 11, 2005 9:16:51 GMT -5
Excuse me but how did SHE promote WOTW? Did she actually say "I'd rather see WOTW than BB" and can a valid source verify that? [shadow=red,left,300]Check this thread for more on why she has upset some fans.[/shadow]
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greg
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Le grille? What the hell is that?
Posts: 139
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Post by greg on Jul 11, 2005 11:20:32 GMT -5
i personally think they should hire/fire someone based on acting ability rather than how they promote it. and she had the acting ability IMO. she seemed a good love interest for Batman/Bruce Wayne. but she does know his real identity.
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 11, 2005 14:46:14 GMT -5
Outrageous I have a valid source read my earlier post-I SAW her on the Irish TV show popcorn where she dribbled on about WOTW non stop and the presenter had to REDIRECT her back to Begins and telling us about her character.she said 2 words about Rachel Dawes-Childhood Friend followed by 2 more District attorney before she started on about how much Scientology changed her life. also at more premieres than I can count she spoke about WOTW -OVER HER OWN MOVIE.she shamelessly talked about Cruise and their relationship at every chance (who certainly did not promote BB)and IGNORED questions about BB Biggest mistake?BB and WOTW were in direct competition due to their opening proximity so thats why fans hate her and WB canned her
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Post by Faithfulbutler on Jul 11, 2005 16:17:41 GMT -5
As always this is a good,friendly and a very open and active discussion.Everyone's not going to agree on this issue that's well and truly a given.It's all academic now though because she won't be returning for the sequel for WHATEVER reasons the powers that be have decided.
So please,feel free to continue the discussion just keep in mind that she's gone now,the Movies doing great guns at the Box Office and a Sequel is assured.
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Post by Batlaw on Jul 11, 2005 17:36:32 GMT -5
"Hate" is perhaps too strong a word IMO. Her skills as an actress are adequate but w/o a doubt no where near the caliber of the rest of the cast and hardly has a comparable resume. That coupled with the fact she is simply too young and "cute" for that particular role in Begins is why she didnt cut it. She did OK but she was the big "Hollywood injection" that sucked out much of the film and character's believability and realism. At least for me. But as Ive said in another thread, I would rather she return in the sequal than be expected to pretend she never existed. For me, that would ruin the story more than her presence.
As for her promotion of Begins or lack thereof, its her life and her loss and only the studio has any say in whether or not her behavior was acceptable... even if we found it nausiating. She's hardly the first actor or actress in Hollywood to appear as a goofball off screen. Now were she directly bad mouthing Begins would be a whole other issue and concern.
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Violator
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Post by Violator on Jul 11, 2005 18:13:10 GMT -5
It wasnt so much that She was dating (now engaged) the WotW star and not promoting BB, it was that everytime she was seen on TV or in the tabloids, it was all about the two of them. It took away from Begins because no one thought of the movie when you see her. Everytime I see Christian Bale, I think of Begins. With her, it was all about her and Tom.
The other reason to drop her was that even though her character was well written she just didnt do that great a job. Maybe it its unfair to compare her to the all-star talent that the rest of the main cast had, but just knowing how big this movie was, they should have cast someone else. Beyond acting ability the age difference is just a bit weird. When Bale was made up the way he was for the court hearing (before he left for tarining), he looked much younger and the age difference wasnt as bad. After his return though, he looks much older and she still looks like a little girl. There are a number of actresses they could have picked that would have had the appropriate age and acting ability.
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Post by MuksC on Jul 11, 2005 18:37:46 GMT -5
the last post by Violator totally sums up why I don't think she was the best choice for the role. Bale looks totally believable as the young college-boy in his early 20's, then looks totally believable as the 29-31 year old Bruce returning from his travels. Holmes looks 18 throughout the whole movie. from the first moment I heard that she would be the love interest, i had a feeling that they made a mistake. I just don't think they look 'right' together (Bruce/Rachel or even Christian/Katie). they could have picked any unknown, or more accomplished actress, for her ability, and how she looks in both portions (younger Rachel at Chills hearing, and older Rachel when Bruce returns). it just feels like a mis-casting that sticks out like a sore thumb. I thought she did ok in the movie, but it could have been a lot better. I haven't even got to my dislike of her interview etiquette! I posted a couple of incidents of her going off-the-point during Begins interviews in the other threads, so will just copy and paste them here: "the MTV movie awards bit was very sickly, especially when Tom got so full of himself during his speech.
i saw an interview on the yahoo movies website, and katie was asked something like "which is more exciting, riding beside Batman in the Batmobile, or riding on the back of Toms motorbike?" she replied "Toms motorbike".
she could have just played along and said the Batman answer, seeing as thats what the interview was supposed to be about.
I've not seen the film yet, but i've been sceptical about her from the moment i heard she was suposed to be Wayne's love interest. in my opinion, she just doesn't 'fit'. I don't think she looks old enough for a start. bruce is in his late 20's/early 30's, so she should look that age too, but she looks about 19.
In a review i read today, the journalist says of her performance in the film, "Holmes is more interesting in her real-life role as Tom Cruise's lover"." just saw a show called 'Behind The Mask' on ITV, and in it, the interviewer says to Katie "most women like tall, dark strong guys, so does Batman fit the bill as the ultimate guy?"
she replied "no, Tom Cruise is the ultimate guy".(read the whole thread: legionsofgotham.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=begins&action=display&n=1&thread=835)
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greg
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Le grille? What the hell is that?
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Post by greg on Jul 12, 2005 22:41:51 GMT -5
i guess she really likes Tom Cruise. whatever, its not much of a loss, but i liked her character. they should eliminate the love interest in the sequel. they did it once, try something new.
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Post by azrael24 on Jul 13, 2005 21:21:02 GMT -5
i thought her character was aright, katie did her job well, maybe not too well but well. her promotting WOTW has nothing to do with how she did in the movie. it is bad but rachel was a good character. i DO wish she would come back cause it be weird if she didnt. it better be explained why shes not. but it would have been better if she came back, cause if they do (PLEASE DO!) bring catwoman, rachel would be a great victom of catwoman. i know though catwoman doesnt kill but come on!
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greg
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Le grille? What the hell is that?
Posts: 139
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Post by greg on Jul 13, 2005 22:53:36 GMT -5
it feels less real when you just eliminate a character.
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Post by JokerFC on Jul 14, 2005 1:36:27 GMT -5
well holmes wont be back so therefore dawes shouldnt be either-I hate when they keep a character and change the actor/actress
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