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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 18, 2005 10:23:38 GMT -5
The Ventriloquist & Scarface
For me, this (or these) characters have always seemed interesting and fresh since the first time that I laid eyes on them; The Ventriloquist and Scarface. First, there's the Ventriloquist, AKA Arnold Wesker, another Batman villain who decided to bury his feelings so deeply as a child, that it resulted in future cases of multiple personalities. Years later, these repressed feelings resulted in Wesker serving time in prison for the murder of a man during a bar-room brawl. Then, there's Scarface, an evil dummy carved from the wood of the prison's gallows tree; after the "unfortunate" death of the inmate who created the wooden dummy, Arnold gives the hideous doll a name and a voice to expel all of his pent-up rage...He names the doll "Scarface"...
It is IMO that the Ventriloquist is in control of his mind/ emotions at all times when he's with the/ his puppet Scarface. Due to the extent of his repressed feelings in childhood, I believe that Wesker never found a suitable way to export from his being all of his worst elements. Also, I believe that he does posses legitimate multiple personalities, it's just that he's half in control, and, half not in control at all times of his life as an adult. I like to think of this as a person having a debate with himself about anything and everything; he can agree or disagree, but he can't stop himself or control himself whenever he feels like it.
Because he cannot stop "debating with himself", he utilizes the/ his foulest of emotions and allows them to manifest into a/ the meta-physical living being in his mind which he refers to the world as "Scarface". Here's a Star Wars example to what I'm referring to; Wesker is a Jedi Knight without a Code (his set of rules to live by is non-existent/ he has no sense of rational thought), who has allowed the Force's light and dark side (good and evil) to flow through his body. However, he doesn't have the mental training or/ of discipline to control them [the good and evil], and doesn't know how to differentiate them after so many years of not identifying his/ the problems [with his emotions]. He allows his Scarface persona to commit all of the atrocities that he himself would never dare to commit, but would do them if he could. Scarface is also the perfect scape-goat; he can be destroyed but his [Wesker's] anger can emerge and strike again; one false move could set this walking time-bomb off.
Because of the delicate nature/ structure of the Ventriloquist's mind, I would have to produce an actor who could portray a man of various mental conditions/states as well as a bona-fide serial killer. I would have to pick John Malkovich. He starred in In the Line of Fire as a serial killer; in Dangerous Liaisons he proved that he could play a character who relished his cruel personality. IMO, he'd be the, if not, one of the best people to portray the fascinating character(s) of Arnold Wesker, the Ventriloquist & Scarface.
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freizerader
Legions Of Gothamite
Revenge is a dish best served COLD! So everybody CHILL!!
Posts: 55
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Post by freizerader on Aug 18, 2005 12:45:26 GMT -5
Like almost all villians in Batman's universe The Ventriloquist is a duality that is difficult to portray.Like BW/Batman a single actor in each generation is born to play the part(i.e. Christian Bale has turned out to be the ultimate portrayor of the Dark Knight)IMHO the two best actors f to play the duality of Scarface would be Joe Pantoliano for Scarface's voice-overs and Bob Newhart for the timid Wexler.In my minds eye I just see the hilarity,like the scene in "The Batman" with Newhart's puny 5 foot 2 inches up against Bale's 6'4".
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 18, 2005 14:50:41 GMT -5
I think that Ventriloquist would be an interesting villain and Black Mask has the perfect characterization for him, IMO. As for casting, I really can't think of anybody.
Since the birth of this thread caused the death of my thread, I'm going to move the Harvey Dent/Two-Face discussion back over here.
Is age a factor? Is it important that Harvey be around Bruce's age?
- Is ethnicity a factor? Denzel Washington seems to be a popular choice and I've heard Jamie Foxx's name brought up in fan speculation threads.
- Should Harvey and Bruce Wayne be friends? Would you want them to become friends in the movie or have been friends through either childhood or as college roomates in whatever Ivy League school Bruce dropped out of.
- How would you deal with the Two-Face aspect of the character during the second film- when Harvey Dent hasn't been scarred yet?
- What do you think the plot for BB 3 should be with Two-Face? Sure, Goyer said that he'd have Joker scar Dent, but who would you pick to do it and how would that overall affect Two-Face's plot?
- I myself think that Harvey and Bruce should be friends who met each other as room mates (so they're around the same age) in one of the various Ivy Leagues that Bruce dropped out of. Bruce went off to Gotham to the Joe Chill hearing and Harvey became a top crime busting lawyer in Chicago. He moves to his hometown in Gotham to try to get things straight, but realizes that he's not in Chicago anymore and the stakes here are much higher.
- My rule on changing a character's ethnicity is that...if the best actor for the role happens to be of a different race, then cast him. If there are other actors who could play the role just as good, if not better, and look closer to the comic book character then try for those guys instead. Not being a bigot here and I'm sure you guys understand where I'm coming from. Needless to say, I think that there's a fine amount of Caucasian actors who could do the role justice.
- I wouldn't completely ignore the upcoming Two-Face side. I think Harvey Dent should be good looking, but also intense looking. As if he knows something you don't. Or something disturbing's on his mind. Yet when you talk to him, he seems like an ordinary guy. It's that quality that I look for in actors when speculating on who I want for Harvey Dent. This provides a smoother transition from hero to villain. I'd rather not have some great looking guy who looks happy all the time and then...surprise...he becomes completely evil just because he's got acid burns on half of his face. I don't think that's as realistic as an on-the-edge Harvey Dent, whose stress level is correlated to the rise of crime in his city.
He's also got pent up rage inside of him. I'd like to see some of the origin stuff. He was abused by his father as a child. Perhaps he was bullied by kids. Perhaps a reason why he kept that rage inside him instead of letting it all out. Either way, he's trying to escape his past, but his past keeps coming back to him. This contributes even more toward his transformation into Two-Face as his pent up rage will manifest itself.
- I could live with Joker scarring Harvey, but I would prefer it to be a mobster. Falcone, Maroni, Thorne....any of them. I'd love to see the "Fall of the Mob, Rise of the Freaks" dynamic in The Long Halloween that has already been sparked in Batman Begins. I'd rather see the mob inadvertantly create their worst Freak enemy than a freak creating another freak. That said, I'd like to see Two-Face going after gangsters and killing them in creative ways. Not exactly a villain version of The Punisher, but a man with his own sense of justice mixed with vengeance. This is the better more satisfying way of taking down crime to him than in his office and in the court rooms. For example, he could go after Judge Faden. Tie him up. Two-Face flips a coin. Scarred side. He throws Faden into the Narrows with all the psychos that he let go to Arkham and all the criminals that he had a hand in setting free.
Possibly more ideas to come later. Let's not forget that Harvey is going to become Two-Face and no matter how many qualities we'll look for in an actor, that actor will have to believably transform into a villain.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 18, 2005 15:46:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the feedback...I spent about an hour writing the ^...I hero you... ;D
I'm still going to stick with John Malkovich; he would bring credibiltiy to the character, he can act, and he's one of the few (50-to-100 currently living actors), IMO, who I can respect and who isn't some MTV flavor-of-the-week...
Sorry 'bout the "death of the Dent thread"...I reasoned that since the mods locked several of the other threads regarding movie gadgets/ what-not, that if we started up several "what's your list of traits for such-and-such character", they'd lock up those eventually...I took it upon myself not to cheese-off the mods regarding ^, and decided to re-vamp the thread(s) myself...
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Post by J-Man on Aug 18, 2005 16:57:52 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]So you know why a lot of these topics have been closed: It is in the board's best interest. It's to the point where I, the mod, am getting confused when trying to look for something, especially when there were several threads dedicated to the same subject/ same aspects.
With Batman's infinite rogues gallery, it's better to have a general thread, ya know? Plus I think you get more discussion out of it.[/shadow]
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 18, 2005 20:43:55 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]So you know why a lot of these topics have been closed: It is in the board's best interest. It's to the point where I, the mod, am getting confused when trying to look for something, especially when there were several threads dedicated to the same subject/ same aspects.
With Batman's infinite rogues gallery, it's better to have a general thread, ya know? Plus I think you get more discussion out of it.[/shadow] Sorry 'bout the multiple threads [with virtually the same premise]...We all make mistakes; that's why there's erasers at the ends of pencils...
You're right; it's better to have just one general discussion thread...I realized this, and decided that I'd rather take the initiative now, rather than face the Wrath of Mod , so to speak, and get yelled at... ;D
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 18, 2005 21:46:38 GMT -5
No biggie.
Now, let's get some Ventriloquist and Two-Face discussion here!
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 8:50:59 GMT -5
I don't mean to type-cast, but I think that Tony Sirico (Paulie from "The Sopranos") might be a great voice for Scarface...I/ we already know that he can play a gangster, and a depraved one at that...His voice, IMO, is/ would be perfect for a puppet with a sort of "Brooklyn/ New Jersey"-accent, seeing as how in the comics Gotham's right next to Jersey [on a map], so-to-speak...I think that he would breathe life into the role instead of having some other actor read lines just to get a pay-check...
Here's a picture of the guy...(Not like we would see him anyways...)www.imdb.com/gallery/granitz/1096/Events/1096/wi20010311_TonySirico_Granitz_156998.jpg?path=pgallery&path_key=Sirico,%20Tony
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 19, 2005 12:54:38 GMT -5
To be honest, I have faith in a good amount of talented (voice) actors who could pull off both Ventriloquist and Scarface (i.e. Hank Azaria). The only thing I have against Malkovich is that he wouldn't do it. At least, that's what I'd judge from his reasons why he turned down the role of the Green Goblin in Spider-Man 1. Speaking of casting who would fit which the proper characteristics, I have to go with Rufus Sewell for Two-Face. He looks around Bale's age. He is around 40 years old, but still looks like he's in his early 30's. He fits all the characteristics that I'd like to see. As for look, he looks just like The Long Halloween Harvey Dent. Curly hair. Large eyes. Squarish features around the chin. And, in Dark City, he wears a brown trenchcoat like what Harvey wears in TLH as well as Hush. He also has the exact look for Harvey that I'd like to see- intense, but still relatively good looking. The man looks like someone who could be ready to explode if you tell him what he doesn't want to hear. As for acting, he is a fine British actor. His American accent doesn't have a hint of his English accent. He's had experience playing villains (Bless the Child with Kim Basinger, A Knight's Tale with Paul Bettany, and the upcoming Legend of Zorro) as well as dark heroes (particularly in Dark City, with Jennifer Connelly and Keifer Sutherland). Dark City is probably the best film to watch him in. He has a dark, intense quality that makes you wonder if he really is the murderer that the villains have framed him to be. He has plenty of intense mood swings, especially in his first confrontation with Kiefer Sutherland. Hello Tim Sale's Harvey Dent Having a bad day, Mr. Dent? veganeko.tripod.com/rufus.gifWith Joker candidate Paul Bettany...
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 13:11:17 GMT -5
Black Mask
One of my all-time favorite bat-villains, Black Mask, IMHO, should one day appear upon the silver screen. You can read his biography here... www.legionsofgotham.org/BIOSblackmask.html
If done correctly, Black Mask could be future Batman films "missing link" when it comes to the evolution of Gotham's criminal population; the city goes from being run by gangsters to costumed psychos in only a matter of months...However, he represents something far deadlier than just a nemesis out to get revenge/ make Batman's life miserable; he represents the power of terror...Now, you may be thinking, "Well, gee...Why would you say that when the Scarecrow's the one who causes fear in people?" And, while the Scarecrow may be able to do so, he can't do it naturally; one of Black Mask's greatest "powers" is the ability to scare the pudding out of you through the power of his voice and through his iron will and charisma. Controlling an army of loyal followers, Black Mask's main weapons are terror and firearms; terror is what keeps his enemies and his own men in line, and the firearms reinforce this idea.
In terms of actors, I would have to go with either actors Robert DeNiro, or, James Gandolfini. Now, before I continue, I would like to make this very clear; I DO NOT cast actors like this for "mafia" roles because they are Italian, and I realize that not all Italians are in the mafia, and not all mafias are Italian. I choose men like this because they have shown time-and-time again that they can play psychos/ murderers/ and disturbed people so well that you forget that you're watching something that's not real...I'd pick DeNiro because in films like Goodfellas you can see that he can play a charismatic leader who doesn't take (insert humorous animal noise here) from anybody and isn't afraid to kill. With Gandolfini, he's, IMO, convinced me that he can play a mob boss who, like DeNiro, is charismatic, but, also has two separate "faces" (his home life, and his life in the mob/ at his club Badda-Bing!) which he covers up with a meta-physical "mask" (how he hid his depression away from just about everybody who knew him in the 1st season)...These are just ideas, however, designed to get the mind working, and these may/ will change in time...
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 13:14:02 GMT -5
I think that he turned it down because it was a throw-away character, and one that was obviously made to sell action figures instead of tell an interesting story; this character hasn't been commercialized like almost every Marvel character out there, and he has a legitimate reason for doing what he does. That, and he does it without looking ridiculous in a green "Power Rangers" costume...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 19, 2005 16:35:16 GMT -5
^ True. I'm just not sure if he'd take any comic book villain role (unless it was a lesser known comic like Road to Perdition) based on what he said:
"It's not really my genre particularly, and there were scheduling difficulties and what they offered wasn't in any way an inducement for me to do it. I mean, if I'd have loved it, obviously I would have don eit, but those sort of films aren't art films, they're business proportions."
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 17:07:06 GMT -5
Once again, I'm looking at YOU Marvel Comics... Well, there goes my chance at seeing him artisically portray the Ventriloquist...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 19, 2005 17:16:21 GMT -5
^ Sorry man.
Want to add anything about Two-Face or my choice for Mr. Dent?
As for Black Mask, I could easily see it working in the way you described. ;D I'm not sure about DeNiro or Gandolfini- I've been thinking someone younger. But anyways, you know Black Mask better than I do, I can assure you that.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 18:02:57 GMT -5
Yes, actually...
1.) The curly-hair thing sounds great, though, I'd like to see it slicked back; he's a D.A. and he's referred to in the comics (before the scarring) as a sort of dapper looking man.
2.) I really want the casting people/ the writers to look at the new version of Two-Face as sort of the "what if the Hayden Christensen Anakin Skywalker didn't whine so much and was far more intense"; I want Harvey to appear calm, collected, and happy on the outside, but, become a bitter, twisted, and thoroughly unhappy person when no ones around. Basically, have him suffer in silence; he did just that when he was growing up while he represses his feelings.Cool... Well, at least I did something right today...Let me just say that I'm not an expert in anything, Batman or otherwise; it's my philosophy that life is a learning process, and to say that you've "learned/ know everything that there is to possibly know" goes against everything that I believe in.I do appreciate your support, however, and your feedback is very important/ appreciated by me. I thought about DeNiro or Gandolfini not because I'd want to cast the Italian stereotype, but, because they have both shown that they can be a cold, calculating, murderous mob boss/ leader that can still charm you and smile to your face at the end of the day; that, and their acting and names would lend legitimacy to the project...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 19, 2005 18:07:31 GMT -5
^I also would rather see straight slicked back hair, which I don't think would be a problem altering on Rufus.
I really don't have much experience with Black Mask. One comic book issue that he was only in for the end (the main villain was Black Spider). That's it.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 18:11:07 GMT -5
I think that I actually have the comic/ storyline that you're talking about in my back-issue bins...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 19, 2005 18:25:22 GMT -5
I figured you would. ;D
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 19, 2005 21:48:29 GMT -5
In fact, I think that I even saw them today when I was looking through my "Batman" comics section looking for the single issues of Year One to help me write my fan-fiction about World War One in the fan-fic section; let's just say that it's a different take on the Bat thanks to it's Elseworlds setting...
BTW...I also have the first issue featuring Black Mask from the 90's... ;D
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