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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 22, 2005 0:36:35 GMT -5
Everybody here loves Batman Begins. I know I do. But let's give a hypothetical situation... Chris Nolan brings you on board in 2004 as the ultimate liason to the Batman fans and to Batman knowledge. David Goyer's too busy working on Blade Trinity so Nolan has to settle for you (hehe). Anyways, he's in early pre-production stages and he's got everything laid out for you. What would you tell him to change to make it, dare I say, even better. Almost perfect? I'm talking about: Casting Story details (using the actual movie's shooting script/storyline as a blueprint) Designs in costuming, production, visuals, etc. CastingThe only actor I'd change would be Alfred. Don't get me wrong, I loved Michael Caine in the role, but if this were my version I'd cast a British actor with as much prestige, but who'd more likely be a chameleon and take on the characteristics well. Who am I referring to? Sir Ben Kingsley. He's old enough. He's bald...one could've easily placed hair on the sides and a fake moustache. He's also a great actor and his voice is a better match for Alfred, IMO, than Caine's. I can easily imagine Kingsley bringing "The Batman"'s version of Alfred to life. This, IMO, would be utter comic to film perfection in the vein of Bale as Batman. How cool would it have been if Morgan Freeman looked like Lucius Fox from the comics, shaved off his moustache, and put on glasses for the most part? It's not his standard look and it would've looked more like the comic book character. As for Rachel...well, I'll be talking about that later. Story detailsI think the most intriguing idea I've heard is cutting Rachel Dawes and replacing her with Harvey Dent and Talia. While I liked Rachel, I can't help but wonder how things would've been liked with Harvey doing some of those scenes. I'd love to see a scene with Harvey lecturing Bruce about justice in the car, but with Harvey coming across as more frustrated and bitter (as if the stress is desensitizing him). A line or two like, "I'm working in the office day and night without any rest and without any sleep as you moan about your tortured soul and drop out of every Ivy League. So don't you dare try to lecture me about justice, Bruce." It could be a bit foreshadowing as well as make the scene a little more powerful. I'd change the "Rachel slaps Bruce" scene to something like this... HARVEY (trying to be calm) Get out... BRUCE Harvey- HARVEY (explodes) GET OUT!!! (bitter) Your father would be ashamed of you. Kind of like two brothers getting into a fight. I think it would've been interesting. Later on, I think the "Falcone sent them to kill you" scene could've been cool to see Harvey in action fighting back until Batman swoops in. You could do all sorts of foreshadowing psychological stuff with the Scarecrow. Jonathan Crane possibly talking about dual identities during the "I prefer the power of the mind over the body" (or whatever that line is) scene. And maybe Harvey seeing things relating to his past. I obviously wouldn't have Harvey knowing about Batman's true identity (so there goes the "It's not who I am underneath" line) nor would I have them kissing at the end!! I'd replace that last scene with them with a kind of brothers reunion in which they forgive each other. And I think it'd be cool if Harvey were on the rooftop at the end with Gordon. Fitting Talia in would be tricky, however, without giving away the twist. As with the rest, I would've cut, added, and rearranged little things here and there. For example, how cool would it have been if they switched the attacks at the end- Batman swoops in to attack Scarecrow instead of Zsaz. Have a brief Scarecrow-Batman fight. Batman beats Scarecrow and leaves him in the Narrows (Gordon's "We still can't find Crane and the others" would've been a suitable way of showing that Scarecrow escaped) and arrives just in time to save Harvey from Zsaz and company. I also would've dissected the flashback. Have the whole "Why do we fall, Bruce" part of the flashback right after Ducard leaves the jail cell. This is because right then, I wanted to see another flashback to Bruce's past. It also fits in so well because right after the "Why do we fall, Bruce?" scene is Bruce falling to the ground after being thrown out of the truck and picking himself up to find a new purpose and journey for himself that will forever change him. Then, the next part of the flashback doesn't come across as happening on the same day as Bruce's fall. It also fits in- Ducard asks "Tell us, Mister Wayne...what do you fear?" and then in the next flashback, Thomas Wayne asks, "The bats agan?" It just fits in better that way. That's all I've got for now. More to come later. But let's put our creative minds to work. If something bothered you in the movie, how would you have done it and would it have really been better that way? This, of course, is in no way meant to disrespect the film or to decrease anyone's enjoyment of the film. It's just that there's more than one way to tell a story.
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Post by SRA on Aug 22, 2005 6:48:17 GMT -5
Great Thread BatmAngelus! Anyway i would not have Ra's Al Ghul - i like the character but instead i would of added Poison Ivy! - I think Ivy and the Scarecrow would of been quite good together or apart as Batman would have to be fighting Toxins, Plants, People infected etc.
Also due to Dr. Jonathan Crane having to leave his job due to being the Scarecrow, we could be introduced to the new Doctor of Arkham Asylum - Dr Harleen Quinzel!
I would keep the ending the Joker card and as the next film starts have Dr Quinzel with the card on her dresser like she is obsessed with him! Harvey Dent introduced - with the split personality! Maybe even a Selina love interest? ? ?
Joker is the only villain in the first half of the film, he is caught by Batman, taken to Arkham Asylum - Dr Quinzel is seduced and twisted by him and becomes Harley Quinn!
The ending of the film shows Two-Face born after a fight with the Joker and Batman - blaming both for his scarring!
Batman 3 can be mainly about Two-Face but has the Joker and Harley as secondary villains -
When Batman catches all the villains we see Ivy and Scarecrow in their cells {Continue's from last film}! As Batman leaves Arkham he hears an explosion and sirens - the villains have escaped and the Bat-signal lights up in the sky leaving a TO BE CONTINUED . . .
End of the trilogy but could allways go on for more . . I dont know its just an idea - abit too many villains but oh well!
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Post by All Star Batman on Aug 22, 2005 15:01:30 GMT -5
I would change Rachel Dawes to Vickie Vale and Carmine Falcone to Rupert Thorne. Other than that I don't know how you can top Begins.
BATMAN 2- We start out with Batman catching ScareCrow. Batman runs into Joker and gets infected with laughing gas. Lucius makes a cure. He finds Joker's hideout and looks for him. Joker appears out of no where and K.O.ed1 him. He wakes up and finds Harvey Dent as his hostage. Joker and Batman duke it out and Dr. Quinzel appears and gets a spray of the gas. Harvey falls down (he's tied to a chair) on his right side. He tries to throw a batarang at Joker but hits a gas tank. Joker then runs for the door and gets out and locks it, and then lights a match and throws it in and there's a huge explosion. Harvey is badley burned on his face and Batman rushes him to the doctor. We then have a flashback of Havey and Bruce at college. Batman and Joker have their final battle a bomb full of gas on the tallest building in Gotham. Joker falls off, but Batman fires a grappling hook to catch. But the bad new is that it goes threw his hand. Batman can't stop the bomb so he call the Batwing. He flies over Gotham River and throws the bomb in with only seconds to go. Joker goes to Arkham with his cell mate, Dr. Quinzel. Bruce goes to visit Harvey, but he's not there. The police say he killed the doctors and escaped. Then the police showed Bruce an artist's rendering of who they call "Two-Face" . CONTINUED IN BATMAN 3!
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 22, 2005 18:33:15 GMT -5
(Basically, I would have kept it more-or-less like Year One, but, include some key elements from Batman Begins that I liked...)
“Upper-Beginning”:
Young Bruce Wayne (6/7 years old); running around the manor gardens/ grounds with young Harvey Dent; Wayne tries to chase after a rabbit...ground collapses...He's hurled downward into a small underground cave; he's terrified, and meets the bat face-to-face...Harvey rushes to go and get his [Bruce's] dad...Thomas Wayne rescues his son from the pit...Bruce keeps babbling about a "ferocious monster in my there/ my head...[points towards the hole]" Thomas comforts his son with the words "Bruce, the monsters in your head/ in that cave because they are there to tell you that there are unpleasant things in this world that can replace our courage with cowardice.. Things that can make us afraid, but, we don't have to be afraid if choose not to..." Alfred is seen bandaging Bruce and making sure that he is there for him emotionally and physically.
Young Bruce Wayne (8 years old); 1 year/ 2 years later, he is still afraid of bats ever since the/ that traumatic momment in his childhood, and carries his fear up until the "end of his life [as just Bruce Wayne]", the night that his parents were murdered...They [he and his family] go to the opera "Der Flieder Maus" ["The Flying Mouse", or, the rough German equivelant of "The Bat-Man"]; Bruce, still deeply afraid from the incident, insists that he leave immediatly from the show; his parents take him out, with his father being the only one who knows why he's really afraid but says nothing of this to his wife so that Bruce won't be embaressed...A nameless-mugger appears; demands his mom's pearls, Thomas refuses; BANG; screams, Bruce goes wide-eyed; BANG; They fall, the mugger looks into Bruce's face, but runs away before he [Bruce] can/ could identify him...Bruce slumps down onto his knees as the camera pulls up-ward and gives a wide-shot showing the bodies, Bruce, and the single lampost for lighting...
Beginning:
14 YEARS LATER...:
Train station; interior; afternoon/ evening
Bruce and Harvey chat over what they both want to do with the rest of their lives...Bruce explains to Harvey that ever since he finished his secondary-schooling at Princeton, all that he really wants to sort out his life, and take "a lengthy vacaction" [training for his war on crime] around the world. Harvey expresses his intrest in combating the corrupting elements of Gotham; he has witnessed the rampant vices and corrupt officials while working as an office clerk for the city's D.A. "Justice must be served...", A grim Bruce will say, before Harvey adds "A darker one if needed", hinting at his already-surfacing emotional/ mental damage. "Harvey, there are two sides to every argument...And there are two sides to the law as well...I hope you'll know which side to choose when the time is right..." Bruce says to him before gathering his things to leave not only the cafe, but, Gotham to. "Oh, I know which side I'd join...And besides, with the courts becoming more-and-more plagued by the local mob influences, It' almost as if I could play a game of 'heads-or-tails' to decide the fates of Gotham's lowest scum", Harvey'll answer."Harvey, justice isn't arbitrary...It isn't as if you can just flip a coin..." "Oh, maybe you're right, Bruce..[Subtle zooming of Dent's hand on the table surface rubbing his "lucky dollar coin"], but, that's how the system feels to me right now...Rigged...Well, I think that you have a train to catch...So long, Bruce..." "And goodbye to you, Harv...You know that if there's anything that's bothering you, anything at all, you can talk to me...remember?" "Yeah, I remember.."
The two depart as friends, with Bruce boarding his train, and Harvey, using his newly-minted coin, casually practices flipping it.
"Lower-Begining": Montage of Bruce training around the world with various figures; displays how he can perform such skills as create/ throw a batarang,or, hide in the shadows; African bushman; South American tribes...etc...Teach him his useful combat skills, while Bruce is tutored on the finer aspects of all things related to deduction/ detective skills, useful knowledge, and anti-terror, until the last country that he needs to visit is a remote village in the Himalayan moutains...Where he will learn the skills that are vital for a Ninja from the one who is called "Ra's al Ghul"
(From here-on-out, it's basically the entire training sequence from Batman Begins; Liam Neeson is still actually Ra's al Ghul)
"Upper -Middle" 6 YEARS LATER (Bruce, age 28 )
1ST APPEARANCE OF CAPT. GORDON (I'd probably keep it the same way as the comics; he's on a train; narrating/ with an internal monolog)
Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham after several years of "leisurely traveling"(training abroad in the styles of martial arts, detective sciences, and the other skills that he'd need in order to wage his war on crime), as well as to take back the company that was once his father's; it won't be easy. The board of directors has been replaced by corrupted officials under the payroll of Carmine Falcone, among others...
Bruce Wayne builds the bat-cave; cancels funding for “useless projects” including, but not limited to, “advanced Kevlar body armor …CO2-powered magnetic grapple guns…Light-weight synthetic-fabrics (cape materials) and a newly-developed ‘combat belt’, featuring multiple storage compartments; featuring the latest in security features, and the ability to uplink with a satellite system for immediate evacuation in a battle situation…State-of-the-art ‘night-vision’ goggles…[and, best of all] ‘The Tumbler’” Bruce rationalizes that since he was back to head the company that his father founded, and his stance on lethal weapons was set in stone (one of his few “hard lines”) , coupled with the fact that it “wasn’t the Cold War anymore” convinced his board room to abandon these projects…A week later, the entire lot of items is pronounced “missing”, but Wayne steps in to “cover the damages” and pays the entire monetary amount of items misplaced; he actually surreptitiously diverts the equipment for his own use in his war on crime…
Dr. Crane testifies in court that the Arkham patient Arnold Wesker (played by Cillian Murphy) be transferred to his wing of the asylum for further examination; Dent believes that Crane is doing something illeagl but he can't prove it, which only makes him angrier/ drives his point home about "justice being arbitrary"
Lt. Gordon is seen doing his job; thwarting armed robbery, successfully rescuing victims from hostage situations…etc…
(Almost literal translation of pages 4-9 of Year One follow)
1st appearance of Lucious Fox; a marketing “wizard” (played by Morgan Freeman) who could basically touch any business property and turn it into gold is brought in by Bruce to head Wayne Enterprises in his absence while he enjoys the leisure-filled life of a billionaire playboy.
Middle:
(My page 10)
A street gang attempts to rob the 'homeless Veteran' (Bruce on a "Recconasaince mission") walking through Crime Alley... He is attacked, and makes the only witty remarks/ taunts that you'll ever really hear from him here on out...He's eventually stabbed by a gang member, and is soon arrested by police and placed in the car; he breaks out of the hand-cuffs; the car spins out of control, and Bruce emerges from the flaming vehicle...He rescues the two injured cops by dragging their unconcious bodies 60 feet from the flaming wreck...
(Almost literal translation of pages 16-22 from Year One, minus the origin sequence)
Batman first appears; takes on minor hoodlums throughout the city, in an effort to spread his name and the fear that will shortly cultivate and follow his prescence.
"Lower Middle":
Dr. Johnathon Crane (played by Crispin Glover) is a derranged-psychologist specializing in phobias has disappeared, only to be revealed to be the fearsome Scarecrow, who has been chosen as Ra’s al Ghul to start his operations of creating mass-chaos with Crane’s “fear gas/ toxin” with the ‘initial testing’ in Gotham, with the world following shortly; all in the name of his quest to restore the balance to the globe’s “population problems”
The Scarecrow starts his plans from inside his secret hideout in an abandoned factory; using Carmine Falcone’s underworld contracts, he is able to have someone from the inside of Arkham Asylum unleash a/ the flood of inmates who have, over the course of several weeks/ months, have been given minute traces of “fear toxin” which was inserted inside of their meals/…The toxin was/ is a binary compound, and required only water in order to work; Crane had the orderlies deprive the inmates of water for 3 days, and, when all of the inmates rushed at the chance for a refreshing drink, they became delusional, fearful, angry, and wild. Crane figured that these inmates, in this untamed state, would ravage the surrounding city with both damages and the fear, both natural and un-natural ( various toxin induced citizens who were Crane’s “un-cooperative test subjects”) would cause massive panic in the streets.
Batman assaults the Scarecrow’s hideout; (the Arkham sequence from Batman Begins); drives Tumbler back to the bat cave, where a surprise is awaiting him…
Meanwhile, Ra’s al Ghul makes his precense known to Bruce/ Batman when he not only finds a way into his fortress along with his League of Shadows bodyguards, but also informs him that at this very moment, not only would the inmates be released from Arkham, but, a count-down timer would start ticking for 10:47 seconds (the exact time that his parents were killed…. )When the timer is done, massive amounts of C4 would detonate at strategic points across the city, destroying important landmarks and escape routes, adding more “fear/ fuel to the fire”; the detonator would be hidden somewhere in Gotham, and, his job would be to “prove that you are indeed the World’s Greatest Detective” He poses a rhyming riddle, Ra’s: “Courtesy of a new associate of mine who enjoys mind-games...” (a black envelope that features a predominant question mark on it; The first mentioning of the Riddler, pre-costume) that he must solve in order to determine which building contains the detonator…
“Fortress walls, and, timeless throne, (Answer: The outside surface/ his father’s desk/ position in the company) A chilling place when you’re alone (His parents are dead) To see my point with certain clarity (To solve the riddle) Search for your family’s act of charity.” (The formation of the Wayne Foundation)
Ra’s: “You have…10 minutes, 47 seconds to stop the explosions…Here is a timer so that I may savor the moment when you look upon this device in horror and realize that you have failed….But, before you can deal with the explosives, you must deal with them…[motions to men hidden in the shadows]…You must realize by now that Gotham is a doomed and damned urban center sprawling with human refuse…”
Batman: “Gotham isn’t beyond saving…You brought your followers [has cape draped over belt and left hand; he looks directly at Ra’s while pressing a silent device installed onto his boot; CLOSE UP; SONIC DEVICE INSTALLED ON BOOT] …I brought mine…” BUTTON-CLICK
BATS APPEAR FROM THE CAVE WALLS AND PROCEED TO SWARM RA’S AND HIS ALLIES
(Think of the scene when the bats swarm in the cave+ the sonic emitter sequence from Year One)
Ra’s: “AAAGH! You have only one delayed the inevitable! (Bat’s swarm and chase him until he’s pushed to the edge of a cliff…More bats converge on him, and the last that the audience sees of him is his body swarmed with bats, and him screaming his [Batman's] name in vengeance )
Batman determines the source of the detonator; the Wayne Foundation headquarters It’s now 8:31 on the timer Ra’s gave him
Tumbler zooms around Gotham as Batman has to stop and save innocent civilians, and fend off the crazed insane asylum inmates as he speeds his way across town
The Tumbler is soon chased by GCPD police cars as a new order is issued stating that “The Batman must be captured…Dead or Alive…Shoot to kill…”
(A fantastic car chase ensues, as Batman must dodge oncoming/ incoming civilian and pedestrian traffic, but, also that of the GCPD, who are trying to kill him…His only chance to make it in time [it’s now 4:32 on the timer] is to abandon the Tumbler (which proceeds to crash directly into the reception area of the building, which, thankfully, was closed for the evening), and grapple upwards to the top of the building; WIDE-ANGLE GROUND LEVEL SHOT; BATMAN QUICKLY PULLS OUT HIS GRAPPLE GUN, AIMS IT, AND LAUNCHES HIMSELF TOWARDS THE TOP OF THE WAYNE FOUNDATION BUILDING) Higher and higher he climbs (3:25 on timer) until he can almost see his father’s office window; before he gets close enough, ; [WIDE-ANGLE SHOT; BACK OF BATMAN FACES THE CAMERA AS A POLICE HELICOPTER IS SEEN IN THE WINDOW REFLECTION; A BULL-HORN ISSUES ‘BATMAN…STAY WHERE YOU ARE…YOU ARE UNDER ARREST FOR…’: IT HAS A SEARCHLIGHT AND IS ATTEMPTING TO LOCATE BATMAN] he doesn’t even look back towards the cops CLOSE-UP; HANDS REACHING TOWARDS BELT; PULLS OUT A SMALL DETONATION DEVICE; BLOWS-OUT THE WINDOW FROM THE OUTSIDE, AND TUMBLES INTO THE SCENE/ BUILDING…Because he’d spent so much time here as a child and as it’s owner, he’s memorized the layout of the building; [2:41 on timer] frantically racing towards his own office, he has to fend off his own security guards (he knocks them unconscious ) and hurls another explosive device on his own office door before somersaulting in; he leaps to the desk [1:10 on timer] and proceeds to locate the device…He searches…[:40 on timer]…HE FOUND IT! [:20 on timer]; he strips open the simple metal panels, and proceeds to cut the detonation cords…[:02 left on timer] Breathing deeply as a sign of relief. The city had been saved…But, there were still dangerous hallucinating inmates running around, and the Scarecrow had apparently fled Gotham…
End:
Batman, Cpt. Gordon, and newly-appointed D.A. Harvey Dent make a vow to destroy crime and arrest the remaining inmate criminals along with the escaped Scarecrow "without crossing the line...Rules may be bent, but, not broken.(Gordon talks of escalation from Batman Begins) ..." Joker card is discussed.. Batman swoops away...The End of the movie...The beginning of the war on crime...
(If anyone else wants me to write another one , or, for that matter NOT write another one, please let me know here)
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 22, 2005 19:15:49 GMT -5
That's cool, Black Mask. You've got kind of an alternative storyline all thought out.
Just a few things: - Why the change from the opera Mefistophle to Die Fledermaus? Thomas Wayne, knowing his son is afraid of bats, would not condone it knowing that it was about a bats. Thomas probably didn't know about the costume designing in the production of Mefistophle, so I could excuse him for that. - While I like your idea of having Bruce and Harvey talk later, I think there's waay too much in-your-face foreshadowing. I think one reference is fine. - Cillian Murphy as Ventriloquist? Interesting. - How does Gordon learn to trust Batman in your script? - Did you give Carmine Falcone the same fate? - If Ra's had Riddler do the puzzle, wouldn't that mean that Riddler would know even before meeting Batman that he was Bruce Wayne? I personally liked that, in Hush, Riddler figured it out on his own because he's smart like that.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 22, 2005 19:34:05 GMT -5
I appreciate ^ ...This took me a good 1-to-1 1/2 hours to write, mainly because I was attempting to create something that, I felt, had never been seen/ writen before for a comic-book movie by combining as many elements of the original stories, taking some of the Batman Begins elements, and blending them together with some of my own invention...Just a few things: I read somewhere that it was Der Flieder Maus, and was basing my knowledge off of that possibly-flawed information...Still, in the context of the story, you could I wanted to show that his transformation from the noble crusader to low-life scum happened over time with some subtlty and some almost-obvious foreshadowing instances; my take on using more than one refference is to show his "fall from grace" as he 'gives in to his anger, his hatred, and his dark side'...I wanted to use as many instances as possible now [in this version of Batman Begins] so that it wouldn't take up as much time in a sequel, where, the 'mask' would come off and his true face would be seen...Thanks. ;D I stared at his photo at the official website, and thought, "well, [John] Malkovich probably wouldn't do such a small role, but, he tested wonderfully for the main role, but, didn't get it because of [Christian] Bale...The least that I could do is give him a bit-part if he wasn't the Scarecrow..."To tell you the truth, I think that I forgot to write that in; I was watching the chicken that I needed to make for dinner, and was juggling multiple tasks at once...I'm not sure...But, I think that I'd explain his fate in a sequel if anybody wants me to write one; I would probably explain how/ why, exactly, he was able to just about disapear from the story, and not just have that as a glaring plot-hole...That's the way that I wanted it to work out...I wanted him to elevate from a sort of "throw-back" movie villain from the dark days of Schumacher regime, and become this villain that loves puzzles and knowledge; the ultimate knowledge for him would be the identity of his only real oponent, the Batman. I wanted the audience to try to find out if he [the Riddler] really knew Batman's identity, or, if he just created a riddle around the premise of the Wayne Foundation because he was fed the information from Ra's, who, in turn, could've just said to him [Riddler] that "the building has a special significance to the city, and thus, the Batman"...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 22, 2005 20:02:44 GMT -5
Ah, I see.
Yeah, the opera isnt' Die Fledermaus, it's Boito's Mefistophle, which kind of ties into the Bruce-Ducard/Ra's story if you think about it...
Anyways....
SRA, that's an interesting idea of replacing Ra's with Poison Ivy. How would you handle the training then?
batfan1990, I can definitely see Falcone's name being replaced with Rupert Thorne. Tom Wilkinson looks much more like him. I'm not sure about replacing Rachel with Vicki Vale, though, unless you made Vicki Vale an assitant district attorney. I'd love to see Vicki back in a different interpretation, though.
Something I'd add...I'd really like more of a leitmotif style to the score. While I liked the Batman Begins score, there were some cues that just seemed to not hold any significance whatsoever. It wasn't like Elfman or even Goldenthal's style in which certain characters had certain recognizable themes that seemed to fit. I would've used the Batman theme much more and possibly choose a different, darker, yet still powerful and heroic melody. I've gone through cues that I've loved on the soundtrack and picked each one that could've been a theme for a certain character or idea. For example, the action part of "Myotis" would be used for whenever the League of Shadows or Ra's is in action and the slower part in the last half would be Ducard's theme.
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Post by MuksC on Aug 23, 2005 3:36:54 GMT -5
some great ideas in here!
I'll post what I'd like to change later, but 1 thing I don't like is Batfan1990's idea of exchanging Dawes for Vale. IMO, having Vale in the film would further confuse the 'average Joes' who had a hard enough time understanding that Begins was NOT the prequel to Batman '89.
having someone most people can remember from the '89 film in a new version would have really not helped the new franchise stand apart from the old set of movies.
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Post by J-Man on Aug 23, 2005 19:25:54 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]For the most part, I'd keep the same basic plot. However, I would change the looks of both Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul. While I enjoyed their portrayals, trait wise, I was hoping for better looks. I would have preferred seeing the Scarecrow in something more "Scarecrow-esque," perhaps at least in a trench-coat or other raggy clothes ala TNBA. I'd ditch the goatee on Ra's, and I'd go for a "Hush" type look. He can keep the suit- I think it worked perfectly with Liam.
I'd also get rid of the device at the end that evaporated the city's water supply. I'd go for something bigger and better, though I have no idea what that would entail.
I was also thinking about the addition of Talia, but I think that the plot would need to change dramatically if I was to add her. Harvey would have made an appearance in the film, too, but it wouldn't be anything entirely major. Maybe a brief cameo.
Finally, I'd go for a city very similar to Tim Burton's Gotham. As much as I liked the grittiness of Nolan's Gotham, there's just something about Burton's city that draws me in.[/shadow]
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 23, 2005 19:32:54 GMT -5
I was thinking about that the other day, and, yeah, ^ seems to be the only real weak point in the movie; it would've worked in a Spiderman movie because, let's face it, IMO, real science doesn't matter in those movies...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 23, 2005 20:22:55 GMT -5
Finally, I'd go for a city very similar to Tim Burton's Gotham. As much as I liked the grittiness of Nolan's Gotham, there's just something about Burton's city that draws me in. I agree. Anton Furst was the production designer for Batman in 1989 and I think his Gotham sets are the true home of the cinematic Batman. Although Batman wanders around in a regular-looking Gotham City in the comics or animated series, live action film is a different medium and Batman just seems right at home in Furst's Gotham.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 24, 2005 5:45:17 GMT -5
I disagree. I realize that Batman is, at the end of the day, a fictional character, but, that doesn't mean that you can't make him realistic, or, have him live/ work in a realistic city. I believe that the Batman Begins Gotham was more believable, in that, you are, essentially, trying to convince the audience that this city could actually exist, and, while it might not "look as cool", it allows you to suspend your belief that Gotham doesn't exist for the 2-hours-and-change of film time; as soon as they see the 300th gargoyle, they'll start to remember that this is fantasy, not reality.
The "Art Deco" look of B:TAS was used, in the words of Paul Dini "[because it would be cool to see what would have happened if] the 1939 World Fair had gone on for another 60 years..." This wasn't a "regular-looking city"; it was an amalgamation of Batman's past, present, and sometimes, future...
It also depends on what series/ decade you're talking about; sure, the original city was regular-looking, mainly because of the materials that the artists were working with and budgeting...Especially because the technology of the day/ time wouldn't allow for highly-detailed landscapes that might cost hundreds of dollars for a magazine that only costs a dime.
With the [Tim] Burton "look", and the [Danny] Elfman score, yes, it [Furst's designs] work in this type of setting. However, Burton already had his/ their chance "tinkering with the Batman universe", along with Elfman and Furst; they made some poor choices, and they'll have to suffer the consequences. Secondly, Gotham doesn't need to look like it was stuck 800 years in the past; you don't need stone masonry everywhere in order to make things "Gothic".
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Post by MuksC on Aug 24, 2005 12:20:06 GMT -5
going with realism as the main proviso for the new franchise, I think they did a great job with the look and feel of Gotham City. I still can't figure out what years BM'89 or Returns are set in, yet the world in Begins is current.
I also am not happy with the microwave emitter plot, it reminds me too much of Under Siege 2 with the nukes on the train, but then again, at least they tried something different instead of the run-of-the-mill "I've got a big bomb and will blow up the world" plot. I like how there are loose ends, like the whereabouts of Crane/Falcone/Arkham inmates.
I wouldn't change much, but would add a few little details here and there.
I would have liked to see Bruce test-fitting the cowl/helmet and Alfred maybe pointing out that the flesh around his eyes was visible, so he would need to put black make-up on to hide it. I would have also liked to see them fitting the helmet part to the bit that covers the lower part of his head and neck. we only saw them testing the top bit, where did the rest of the cowl come from?
I would have got someone else to play Alfred, I really hated it when Caine kept calling it 'Goffam' instead of Gotham. I think he really over-acted in the emotional bit when Bruce returns from saving Rachel to go to his birthday party.
And definitely have someone else playing Rachel (if there really had to be the Dawes character) who could be made to look 22 and 29 , instead of Holmes who looks the same at both ages.
If we didn't need the Dawes character, then I would have included Dent somewhere, probably as understudy to DA Finch.
I would have liked to see some blood on the clothing of Bruce's parents, and Joe Chill when they get shot. maybe they left it out to get the 12 certificate though.
these are really nitpicks, and you may disagree, but nevermind.
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Post by The Demons Head on Aug 24, 2005 16:45:34 GMT -5
^ I think that WB only featured Dawes' character in order to convince some people that the story was also a "love story", i.e., to appeal to a certain demographic; though, if I always wanted to see a "compelling love story", I'd go with George Lucas' amazing-dialog filled masterpiece, Attack of the Clones...
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Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 27, 2005 22:12:05 GMT -5
I'm not sure if trying to convince the audience that the whole Batman universe exists is really that important. My friends still saw Batman Begins as a fantasy and still loved it. To me, the Batman universe has always been a nice mix of realism and fantasy- which is exactly what Furst's Gotham looks to me.
The Gotham City in BTAS didn't look too different from a regular looking city to me. True, it seemed more set in the '30's than in the present day, but I personally didn't find it that much different than a normal city.
I really don't see how Burton already having his chance has anything to do with my preference for Furst's designs in the live action world. I don't think there are any "consequences" involved and the only "poor choices" I see fans complain about had to do with the story and character interpretations- a lot of which was the fault of Sam Hamm's heavily rewritten screenplay. Also, remember- this is if I were in charge of Batman Begins.
Gotham didn't look "stuck 800 years in the past" in B89 to me. The only thing that I saw as "stone masonry" was the cathedral that was meant to look old in the first place. Everything else looked like it could pass for a modern city with dirty, yet beautiful gray buildings with unique designs.
And yes, I also think that it visually looks better too. Sue me.
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Post by Batman Prevails on Oct 1, 2005 20:21:13 GMT -5
The only things I'd change about Begins is the pronounciation of Ra's Al Ghul. I don't know if that was a stuff-up or done on purpose considering that the real Al Ghul in this movie is caucasion and not middle-eastern.
Maybe Martha Wayne should have been given a few lines as well.
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