Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 14, 2004 18:29:38 GMT -5
Hi, this is my first time posting here, but I've been a longtime lurker at the forums. I just wanted to say, first of all, that I enjoy many of the posts here. There is a genuine enthusiasm at Legions of Gotham for all things Batman that is hard to match. By the same token, nobody here is afraid to express their genuine opinions either, be they positive *or* negative.
But what sets LoG aside from the others is that most people here remain unbiased in their opinions.
It seems anywhere else you go, you'll find all these posters who keep repeating the same sentences about The Batman. "It's no BTAS..." or, "I tried not to judge it as I would BTAS but..." etc. and I for one, am absolutely sick of the comparisons, the harsh judgement just because it isn't a "Timm" series (even as these posters worship Timm's JLU, which has had a noticable dip in quality overall...but that is neither here nor there), but in all, I don't wish to dwell on the negative. Let the others do that.
But since the comparisons won't go away, I'd like to take a look at the first 13 episodes on the "Volume 1" DVD set. Yes, this isn't the airing order or the production order as far as I know, but if you were watching BTAS for the first time after purchasing the DVD set, this is what you'd see in order.
I'm not doing this to bash BTAS (far from it, BTAS is arguably the best animated series ever produced), but for those ready to write off The Batman based on the first episode. It seems only fair to take a look back at these, which is equal to one "season" of The Batman (which actually had 26 episodes produced for the full season, which were split in half much the way JLU's episode order and Teen Titans have been, as well.)
On these two discs alone, we have such "gems" as "Christmas with the Joker" (For those who question The Batman's dialogue, plotting, etc.--go watch this episode. Easily as campy as any Adam West-era Batman episode.) "The Last Laugh" (one of the worst Joker episodes of any incarnation of Batman--"You killed Captain Clown!" ring a bell?), "The Underdwellers," "The Forgotten," "Be a Clown" and the crown stinker, "I've Got Batman in my Basement."
So, I'd say that even if "The Bat in the Belfry" didn't meet your standards of how you remember BTAS (and personally, I found TBitB to be a superb pilot, considering everything it had to introduce to the viewer while still providing an actual plot to accompany this--the fact that it did all this *and* provided some quiet character moments in the span of 22 minutes should be testament to the strength of the writing), do remember how terrible some of the early episodes were, and that the series didn't really hit its stride fully for quite some time.
For every "Two-Face" or "On Leather Wings," there was a real dud that would make even the most devout Batman fan cringe the entire duration of the episode.
Right now, I'd say that "The Batman" is off to an excellent start, and I truly believe that it will only get better and better over time. The same can be said for BTAS, and we all know how great that series turned out to be...even with the episodes listed above.
--Larry
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Post by Faithfulbutler on Sept 14, 2004 19:57:02 GMT -5
Great first post Drizzt and welcome to the boards,i can see you will be a most welcome addition to our Family.
I certainly agree with you,we need to give The Batman a fair go,i believe this will be a fantastic series and well worth the effort.I can't think of a single TV series be it animated or whatever where every episode leaves the viewer satisfied.There will always be exceptions to evry rule and we will be more than happy with The Batman as it progresses.
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Post by Peev34 on Sept 14, 2004 20:52:51 GMT -5
[shadow=blue,left,300]That was a excellent post! Very objective and open-minded....exactly what LoG thrives on! I sincerely appreciate you sharing your thoughts in a well organized and thought out manner!
Welcome to the land of active posters, Drizzt2218! You have made quite a first impression on this sentry![/shadow]
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azrael
Gotham Tourist
Posts: 13
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Post by azrael on Sept 14, 2004 22:46:55 GMT -5
excellent post! though i love On Leather Wings, Two Face, MOTP etc (On Leather Wings, Over the Edge being my two favorite episodes), there were indeed some less than stellar BTAS episodes like some of the ones you mentioned. BTAS indeed is easily the best animated series ever but flash back to the opening scene of The Cat and the Claw. that was the first episode i ever saw and though i loved it the intro dialogue by Batman telling Catwoman to "drop in any time" was complete camp and not that good at all. The Batman's intro with Thorne in "Belfry" was very good, imo.
i would venture to say i actually enjoyed "Belfy" much better than those Joker episodes you mentioned so they must be doing something right. and the show will improve. it has its flaws but i love it.
i have faith in this series. i think it is high quality and will get better with time. BTAS was amazing and i have both the Columbia House and WB collections but i'm just glad we have a brand new fresh take on The Batman and his universe!!!!!
Bring on The Batman!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by HUSH on Sept 14, 2004 22:56:35 GMT -5
Welcome! I absolutely could not agree with you more. A superb first post. Although I did love "The Undedwellers" and "The Forgotten." ;D
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 14, 2004 23:00:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the welcome! And you can all call me Larry, or even Lar, if you please.
I honestly don't have a lot of time in my life to post around messageboards, and this is the first one I've posted at in a great deal of years.
But everyone here has impressed me so much that I felt inspired to share my thoughts on the current direction of the franchise--and right now, The Batman *is* the franchise, carrying the torch and building the hype in youngsters until Batman Begins.
It was a brilliant move to put out this series a good many months before BB, and one that demonstrates an amazing confidence in the direction of the series and its ability to appeal to the kids. 2005 is going to be the Year of Batman, surpassing both the "Batmania" of 1989 and 1992, when BTAS premiered and Batman Returns was fresh on the public's mind.
The quality of animation alone is unprecedented at WB Animation right now, the vocal talent is just that--talented; and I think we're all going to be impressed with the writing on this series, especially as we get further and further in.
This show is doing something that we didn't really see on BTAS. It's building the relationships in a steady manner, over a period of time. It would have been easy, and predictable, to make Joker The Batman's arch foe in the first appearance and play up that epic nature of that relationship. But this series is attempting to show an actual evolution, not a Simpsons-esque environment where nothing changes or grows. By next year, I'd almost promise that The Batman will more closely resemble the classic mythology, and we'll all have that much more appreciation for the way this crew took things slow and developed them over time.
The very fact that The Batman takes place in Year Three and yet he's still learning the ropes demonstrates to me a more realistic attitude in relation to the series: The idea that a legend, a myth, takes time to become so. King Arthur's legend didn't spread overnight, and neither should The Batman's.
--Larry
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Post by re on Sept 14, 2004 23:19:04 GMT -5
That was an exellent post, and welcome to the L.O.G., I agree 100% with everything you just said, once again great post.
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Post by JokersGalPal on Sept 14, 2004 23:27:56 GMT -5
[shadow=blue,left,300]That bored me to death...but thanks....
and Welcome to L.O.G[/shadow]
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Post by reideen1313 on Sept 15, 2004 0:09:27 GMT -5
[shadow=blue,left,300]That bored me to death...but thanks....
and Welcome to L.O.G[/shadow] Don't mind her Drizz - if it doesn't have a pic of Christian Bale, she gets bored. It was a great first post! You made some very good points, with specific examples, so I can tell you did your homework. I look forward to seeing more posts from you!
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Post by BullocK on Sept 15, 2004 0:27:21 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]I share the same sentiment as everyone else, that was a very open minded and thought out post. Happy to have you among the land of active posters![/shadow]
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Post by /\/\att on Sept 15, 2004 1:37:45 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]Larry - what a passionate and positive post! I can tell you are a true fan. Its a joy to have you amongst our posting members now, and I look forward to interacting with 'ya more![/shadow]
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 15, 2004 2:10:11 GMT -5
Thanks Matt! I look forward to interacting more with you, as well--you've done a brilliant, highly commendable job not only running LoG, but making it *the* site for those wishing to be kept up to date on the latest Batman news! I actually sent you a PM once about something, but I ended up not needing most of what that message was about, and the little I did need I found on my own. You probably don't even remember what I'm talking about, as I'm sure you get deluged with messages on a consistent basis.
Anyway, I thought I'd check this board one final time before heading off for the night--I tend to not only keep late hours working, but rise early at that! If I don't find time to post the rest of this week, you can rest assured I'll be sharing my thoughts on "Call of the Cobblepot" this Saturday.
--Larry
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ROBOTRON
Gotham Tourist
Cybernetic Humanoid
Posts: 0
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Post by ROBOTRON on Sept 15, 2004 6:25:02 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]Welcome to LOG, humanoid.
Way too early for me to form opinions and comparisons to the earlier Batman cartoons.
Wait and see attitude for me.[/color][/shadow]
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Schemes
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 190
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Post by Schemes on Sept 15, 2004 14:15:51 GMT -5
I'm loving it so far, and as to compare, I HATED (don't get all jumpy now ) On Leather Wings, imo, it was horrible. The Batman's season opener was fantastic, a little rushed, but wittiness from Alfred, Batman's Dialogue, it just seemed better. I'm not going to "officially" judge them until I see the first 3-4 episodes, then I'll start to crack down. It will be interesting to see if "The Bat and the Cat" beats out "The cat and the Claw" or not, personally think it will
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Post by HUSH on Sept 15, 2004 15:56:01 GMT -5
I thought "On Leather Wings," was a great episode. I just don't think it made for a good first episode.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 15, 2004 17:16:32 GMT -5
Was "On Leather Wings" the first episode aired? I seem to recall "The Cat and the Claw" being the first episode, premiered in primetime on Fox, no less. I could be mistaken on this, or perhaps "On Leather Wings" was the first episode aired on a Saturday morning?
I remember seeing both when they first aired, but for some reason "TCatC" stands out in my mind as being the first episode aired, mainly because I remember how great I thought it was to see a cartoon that wasn't "The Simpsons" airing later at night. Of course now we have channels like Cartoon Network and other cable outlets that air these shows on a constant basis, but back in 1992, this was quite a treat.
Likewise, "Batman Beyond" received similar treatment on "The WB" when it premiered on a Sunday night--the difference being that Fox stuck with it and aired a number of episodes in primetime before moving it to Saturday mornings and weekday afternoons.
Anyway, it is interesting to note that until "TBitB" we've never seen a true pilot for a Batman series. We've always been thrust into the action with little or no explaining about who the characters are, their motivations, etc. Even "The New Batman Adventures" thrust the audience right into the action, and only later did they properly explain many of the changes (such as "Old Wounds") while others, such as Scarecrow's radical transformation, remain an idea that was never fleshed out.
It was refreshing to see an emphasis placed on making it clear why Bruce became Batman, the roles of Alfred, Ethan, Yin & Rojas, and showcasing the different tech such as the Batcave, the Batwave, the Batmobile, and the Batboat (is that what they still call it?). I can't wait to see my personal favorite vehicle, The Batwing.
Others may love the Batmobile, but I've always been fond of the 'Wing. Burton's film and B:TAS featured my favorite versions of the Batwing, while Batman Forever and The New Batman Adventures featured the worst. I have confidence based on the other vehicles that I will not be disappointed with The Batman's Batwing.
One thing I do hope to see from "The Batman" is the origin of The Joker, and Batman's anguish over the idea that he *created* this madman. I think there would be some remarkable drama in an episode like that, which would balance nicely with the kinetic action sequences.
--Larry
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Post by HUSH on Sept 15, 2004 17:36:47 GMT -5
Was "On Leather Wings" the first episode aired? I seem to recall "The Cat and the Claw" being the first episode, premiered in primetime on Fox, no less. Yes, in fact, I believe tCatC was the first to be aired, however OLW comes first in continuity, and when the episodes are put in their proper order.
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Post by Robin on Sept 15, 2004 18:42:16 GMT -5
That was a great post and welcome to LOG. I agree that you can't compare BTAS with The Batman. That's comparing a whole animated universe to one single animated episode. Doesn't seem much of a fair comparison now does it?
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Post by PJ on Sept 16, 2004 7:06:54 GMT -5
Was "On Leather Wings" the first episode aired? I seem to recall "The Cat and the Claw" being the first episode, premiered in primetime on Fox, no less. I could be mistaken on this, or perhaps "On Leather Wings" was the first episode aired on a Saturday morning? I remember seeing both when they first aired, but for some reason "TCatC" stands out in my mind as being the first episode aired, mainly because I remember how great I thought it was to see a cartoon that wasn't "The Simpsons" airing later at night. Of course now we have channels like Cartoon Network and other cable outlets that air these shows on a constant basis, but back in 1992, this was quite a treat. Likewise, "Batman Beyond" received similar treatment on "The WB" when it premiered on a Sunday night--the difference being that Fox stuck with it and aired a number of episodes in primetime before moving it to Saturday mornings and weekday afternoons. Anyway, it is interesting to note that until "TBitB" we've never seen a true pilot for a Batman series. We've always been thrust into the action with little or no explaining about who the characters are, their motivations, etc. Even "The New Batman Adventures" thrust the audience right into the action, and only later did they properly explain many of the changes (such as "Old Wounds") while others, such as Scarecrow's radical transformation, remain an idea that was never fleshed out. It was refreshing to see an emphasis placed on making it clear why Bruce became Batman, the roles of Alfred, Ethan, Yin & Rojas, and showcasing the different tech such as the Batcave, the Batwave, the Batmobile, and the Batboat (is that what they still call it?). I can't wait to see my personal favorite vehicle, The Batwing. Others may love the Batmobile, but I've always been fond of the 'Wing. Burton's film and B:TAS featured my favorite versions of the Batwing, while Batman Forever and The New Batman Adventures featured the worst. I have confidence based on the other vehicles that I will not be disappointed with The Batman's Batwing. One thing I do hope to see from "The Batman" is the origin of The Joker, and Batman's anguish over the idea that he *created* this madman. I think there would be some remarkable drama in an episode like that, which would balance nicely with the kinetic action sequences. --Larry Welcome to the boards. And yes that was truely a great well thought out first post. As for your question... Yes, "On Leather wings" was indeed the first episode Fox aired. It was the premier and did air on primetime. PJ
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 16, 2004 10:08:05 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, both of you. I knew that "On Leather Wings" is the first episode chronologically, what I was questioning was the actual airing order. This is my mistake, as I should have made my question a little more clear. Either way, I've gotten my answer, so thanks. I knew that I caught both of those on their first airing, but you know, memory becomes a little fuzzy after 12 years. --Larry
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Post by J-Man on Sept 16, 2004 16:45:28 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]I'm about 2 days late, but welcome anyway! I have to agree with your post. In a crappy analogy, comparing BTAS with "The Batman" is like comparing a 1992 car model with it's 2004 model... it's almost inferior. Sure, we loved that old car, it took us a lot of places and we rode through some great times... but the new one is sleeker, more innovative and, well, new... It's bound to take us through some amazing journies, just as the old one did. Just give it time.
Well, that was lame... [/shadow]
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Post by HUSH on Sept 16, 2004 17:55:00 GMT -5
Welcome to the boards. And yes that was truely a great well thought out first post. As for your question... Yes, "On Leather wings" was indeed the first episode Fox aired. It was the premier and did air on primetime. PJ Really? Cuz' peachscience said on the talkback for tBitB that they aired The Cat and the Claw parts 1 & 2 as the premier. I saw it then, but was never sure if it was the premier.
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ROBOTRON
Gotham Tourist
Cybernetic Humanoid
Posts: 0
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Post by ROBOTRON on Sept 16, 2004 20:55:28 GMT -5
That was a great post and welcome to LOG. I agree that you can't compare BTAS with The Batman. That's comparing a whole animated universe to one single animated episode. Doesn't seem much of a fair comparison now does it? I AGREE.
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Post by IceDrake523 on Sept 17, 2004 15:02:49 GMT -5
I thought "On Leather Wings," was a great episode. I just don't think it made for a good first episode. Wasn't Cat and the Claw PArt 1 the first episode?
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 17, 2004 16:23:15 GMT -5
Heh heh, that's what we're trying to figure out, it seems. "On Leather Wings" was the first episode produced for B:TAS, and as such, would serve as the pilot. However, I'm not certain (and neither are a few others, it seems) that "On Leather Wings" is the first episode that was aired.
I seemed to recall, and others do as well, that "The Cat and the Claw" was the first episode that Fox aired. As another example, Kid's WB aired "Holiday Knights" as the first episode of "The New Batman Adventures" but it wasn't the first episode produced--that would be the episode they aired the following week, "Sins of the Father," introducing Tim Drake to the animated Batman lore.
Okay, I just looked it up in "Batman: Animated" and indeed, according to their episode guide, "The Cat & The Claw Pt. 1" is the first episode to air, on 9/5/92 no less. "On Leather Wings" aired the following day. I wish they would have listed the episodes in production order and then listed the air date separately, but this does clarify at least the airing order.
--Larry
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Post by PJ on Sept 17, 2004 19:07:39 GMT -5
On Leather Wings was the episode they premiered on primetime. It was the first eipsode to be televised. I remember watching it on the premier night. And it's still a touchy subject with my wife...because I was living at home in NJ and she still lived with her parents in NY...so I refused to see her that night...because it was an hour ride to her house and I didn't want to miss it. ;D Also it's the very first episode I have on my tape one of "Fox" BTAS.
Plus if that's not enough on the back of my Columbia House BTAS Collection...The box entitled "Monsters" has a write up for " On Leather Wings" and this is what it says... This, the first of the Batman episodes to be telecast, is one of the best in the series. It concerns a brilliant scientist, Dr. Kirk Langstrom, who, like the infamous Dr. Jekyell before him, decides to experiment on himself. What he accomplishes gives Batman a unique problem - capturing a giant bat.
"The Cat and the Claw" was the first episode they aired in it's regular time slot. But "On Leather Wings" was the first episode ever shown. PJ
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Post by HUSH on Sept 17, 2004 22:34:58 GMT -5
Oh...okay. Sorry, didn't mean to create a dispute or anything... ;D
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Post by /\/\att on Sept 17, 2004 22:41:09 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]PJ is, as usual, correct. On Leather Wings is the first thing they ever aired. NOW, the thing may be that some people lived in areas that didn't have main Fox channels and when it was aired there the first ones were cat and the claw. But nationwide, On Leather Wings was first.[/shadow]
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Post by PJ on Sept 18, 2004 6:41:04 GMT -5
Bane don't be sorry for asking a querstion...It's all good. Matt, I love the sound of this... [shadow=green,left,300]PJ is, as usual, correct.[/shadow] Please let my wife in on that...as she thinks she's always right. ;D PJ
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Sept 18, 2004 10:24:45 GMT -5
PJ, I was just about to post the same thing. I didn't think it was a dispute so much as an interesting conversation. I know I certainly was having fun looking it up and trying to figure out which one came first. Of course, if I'd just listened to you, I wouldn't have had to look up anything at all. =)
--Larry
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