Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Oct 6, 2004 18:53:04 GMT -5
In a stark contrast to my first thread (posted after The Bat in the Belfry aired), where I posted that I felt we should give The Batman time to air more episodes before making any judgements, I was thinking now that a few more episodes have aired it would be a good time to gauge viewer reaction and see what you think of this series as a whole. With Kid's WB taking a break and reairing these first four installments, it seems as good a time as any to ask this question.
I'd like to do this perioidically as well, if Matt and everyone else doesn't mind--for instance, compared to what people think now as of the fourth episode, what they think 8 or 9 episodes in, or after the entire first season has aired. After all, our views of the series are surely different than before/when the first episode aired, and I'm sure they'll be a little different from now, after the season is over.
I'll start out with my feelings on the series thus far, divided into two categories--Story, and Animation/Art Direction.
Story:
The Pros: What I'll call the "Three C's," Continuity, Consistency, and Character (Development). There is a feeling, watching the episodes in order, that you as the viewer are actually watching a continuing story unfold, as opposed to a pocket universe where the events in one episode have nothing to do with another.
Like a sitcom or a TV Drama, we're watching the development of our main characters, learning more about their histories or personalities as the series develops. Alfred, in particular, has benefited from this.
There's also an internal continuity at play that is refreshing, and the tone of the series is more than consistent. One episode does not vary greatly from the next in terms of tone. Even the villains are given character development, with the clear sense that their first appearances are just meant to establish them, their motivations, and their relationships with The Batman--and this all of this will develop in their subsequent appearances. Which leads to one of my only--
Cons: The writing. I think the show has very strong writers on it, with supervising producer/story editor Duane Capizzi (who had the difficult task of penning the pilot episode "The Bat in the Belfry") and Steven Melching ("Call of the Cobblepot") being the two I am most impressed with, and Adam Beechen clearly finding his voice on the series with his much superior second script, "The Cat and the Bat," which had none of the weird/out of character moments & dialogue that plagued his first effort, "Traction."
The problem then is that two of these plots were low on actual story ("TBitB" had no time to really give us a story what with establishing the whole "The Batman" universe and all, while "The Cat and the Bat" is so by the numbers and predictable that it feels like you've already seen it five minutes in--you know exactly where the story is heading and there are absolutely no surprises).
And while the other two have plenty of story and a few real surprises up their sleeves, one of them ("Traction") is damaged greatly by the aforementioned "weirdness/out of character" moments that stick out--for how strong the plot is, for the great scenes such as the flashbacks, Batman's first fight with Bane, the Batbot/Bane battle, there are scenes that are absolutely painful to watch such as Alfred's getting splashed with nachos/cheese (not even Batman Beyond had Terry rocking to music in the cave and munching nachos--let alone old man Wayne getting nachos all over himself!), or the "sweat dropping to the ground" scene, king of all suspense cliches.
As a whole, I think the lesson should be that just because you are introducing these villains for the first time, does not mean that you cannot have a real plot and some real surprises within the plot. One can always hold out hope that strong stories will accompany these villains in their subsequent appearances, but their first appearances should not lack in this area, either. "Call of the Cobblepot" and "Traction" were the two with the strongest plots, but if "Traction" had the superior writing of "Call of the Cobblepot" or "The Bat in the Belfry," it would have been a much better episode, and had "The Cat and the Bat" had a stronger/less by the book plot to accompany Beechen's stronger writing, it too would have been a better episode.
And that is NOT to say that any of these episodes have been bad. They have just ranged from "average" to "very good" and I like to think that if these problems were fixed and we saw more complicated/involving plots to go along with the writing, and the (few) instances of cheesy moments that have no reason to even be in the story being jettisoned completely, this series would be "very good" all the time and I'd have absolutely no cons to list.
Animation/Art Direction:
Pros: I'm absolutely loving the fluid animation and the majority of designs. I love how the police (with the exception of our two lead detectives) have a gestapo/1984 look to them--giving the impression that they are a facist police force with a menacing quality without even showing us any of these qualities within the story. The point is made just in their designs.
Cons: The ONLY design that has proven to be a real problem is The Joker--not that he is a problem with me, but that clearly his design has had a polarizing effect on fandom, with a clear split between those who love it and those who hate it. While seeing him in the purple suit in an upcoming episode should alleviate some of this reaction, something a LITTLE closer to what we know of The Joker in his "usual" attire would have been a great help. If not the suit, then shorter hair. If not the hair, then a flower lapel or something at least akin to his usual costume. A lot of initial complaints (and complaints still being made) center on The Joker, and I think there clearly was room for middle ground, with some drastic departures that could have been made, while keeping more elements than were kept.
Final Analysis:
In all, my final grade for these first four episodes would be a "B+" or an "8/10". I'm still excited for this series, I'm still really enjoying what I've seen, and I'm looking forward to even more now the second appearances for the villains that have been introduced, and the ones we've yet to see. This is only the beginning--and while it is a strong beginning, I feel there is still a lot of room to make the show even stronger.
--Larry
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Post by HUSH on Oct 6, 2004 20:37:37 GMT -5
Many of your points are just how I feel. I have no problem with the artwork/animation. I actually like Joker's design; not a problem with me. As for the plots: I love the episodes' stories immensely, although the writing could use quite a bit of work, IMO. I thiought the nacho thing was very ridiculous, , but it was a small part of the episode; in my opinion, the overall quality of the episode benefitted from its good points, i.e. the fights, the flashback, more than it suffered due to its bad points, i.e. the nachos and the sweat drop. But now I'm just talking about one episode. tBitB was great for the first episode, its few faults can be attributed to that. CotC was a perfect Penguin ep, IMO. Traction I've already evaluated; it had more good points than bad. Finally, tC&tB ws rather "by the book" as you said(I hadn't thought about that), but other than that, it was awesome. Overall, I think this series is shaping up to be great, IMO, and with a few more episodes, I think the writers will have this down. Hopefully, anyway. Bring on The Batman some more! ;D
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Post by jasontodd2 on Oct 6, 2004 21:05:08 GMT -5
I have no issues with the animation or the more kiddie friendly style. But I think one thing that is lacking are the storylines. Maybe they should take this oppurtunity to go back and write some better storylines, with more of a plot...
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Post by /\/\att on Oct 7, 2004 1:16:13 GMT -5
I think as we get more into this series, the plots will thicken up a bit. We're seeing the ground floor of this project, naturally a few bugs still need worked out....as is the case with just about any show.
I have no problem with talkbacks such as this. I think its great for the fans to get whats on their minds out. I want to remind everyone that our forum does have guidelines about unnecessary negativity. This means you are more than welcome to criticize, but please do so constructively. We had to make this rule when the board began filling up with threads like "mattel sucks", which does no one any good. I like the idea of listing the pros along with the cons...and if you have a con and feel strongly enuf to post about it...then you should feel strongly enuf to give your view of how it could be different. remember, many a person involved in this show see what you type, so if you'd like something done differently, then let 'em know here. Don't just complain for the sake of complaining! A real fan should be able to speak their mind in a mature, adult way, so that their opinions can be heard. You're on the batman forum that provides you with the most in depth ability to interact with the franchise you love...take advantage of it.......don't just complain...construct.
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Thatman
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Truth Now. Courage Always. Brunch on Sunday.
Posts: 182
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Post by Thatman on Oct 7, 2004 9:03:00 GMT -5
I really have to say, despite my initial apprehensions about this entire project, that I'm starting to really like the show. I think there's incredible potential here.
I do think the writing could use some work, and there appears to be a kind of forced comedy at work. . . namely, that many of Bruce and Alfred's lines seem designed to illicit a cheap laugh. Beyond that, though, I think the story ideas are good. . . I love Catwoman, and the concept of Penguin as much of a Bruce Wayne foe as a Batman foe is great. From what I've heard, there are other neat new ideas in the works.
The animation is very appealing, and I hope the show lets us see more of Gotham City in different sections. The voice casting so far is pretty steady (I think Romano is a little too light with Bruce Wayne, but I can deal.)
I'm very interested in seeing more episodes!
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Post by Batmatt on Oct 7, 2004 12:24:34 GMT -5
Good show, I'll definitely continue to watch. What stands out to me the most is the Alfred/Bruce Wayne relationship, I think they did a great job handling that thus far.
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Post by J-Man on Oct 7, 2004 14:44:11 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]I have enjoyed every episode of "The Batman" so far. I think that it is very good for changes to take place in portraying one character, especially a comic book character as immortal as Batman. Jeff Matsuda and his creative team had a lot of challenges ahead of them. Not only were they bringing us a new Batman show, they had to fulfill the wants of a solid fanbase while trying to do something totally different. Every villain has been tweaked. They are far more sinister than we have seen in past incarnations. The Penguin, for example, is more active despite obvious flaws in the laws of physics involving his backflips and jump techniques. Though I'm not partial to this idea, it works perfectly for the show. The writing is not as good as BTAS, though, but fortunately, there isn't much flawed with this point. Some shows would have died out by now with that problem, but "The Batman" is still going strong because of increasing character development and stunning animation. If they combined BTAS's writing with the animation in this show, we'd have the greatest Batman 'toon ever. Catwoman is portrayed nicely. No complaints. Bane talks less and attacks more. Nice. The Joker isn't the greatest, but since he only appeared in the choppy pilot, I'm giving him some slack. Design wise, they're all good.
So, everything's going good for the first episodes. I hope they get better and better. I can't wait for "The Big Chill."[/shadow]
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Post by Peev34 on Oct 7, 2004 15:22:37 GMT -5
[shadow=blue,left,300]Wonderful thread idea, Drizzt!
It's no secret that I am a big fan of "The Batman". I have enjoyed every episode thus far, and recognize it's improvement from week to week. Matsuda and Co. are doing a bang up job, IMO, and I think it will only get better.
Now, we all know that this show is aimed at kids and I for one could not be happier about that. Think about it...this is the show for a new generation of Bat-fans, just like BTAS was for many people on this board,(or Super-Friends for the older set like me). A majority of the target audience are being exposed to Batman for the first time...as they grow, so will the show! This means longevity! I have little doubt that this will evolve into the standard for the animated DCU as a result. And kid-friendly or not, they have done an excellent job of throwing a few bones for the adult fan ("speaking of abroad", The Bruce/Alfred flashback) which have made me very happy!
The character design are wonderfully done. I have had no problem with the new look of any of the villains as the essence of the classic character is still very much in tact.
The voice acting improves every week as each actor seems more and more comfortable in their roles with each episode. The choices of the villians (KMR, Gershon, etc.) are perfect.
Does this show have room to improve? Of course it does, but I am extremely confident that this will be a show we are discussing for years to come![/shadow]
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Post by Robin on Oct 7, 2004 15:29:07 GMT -5
I'm going to make this short and sweet, I love it.
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Josh
Gotham Tourist
Posts: 0
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Post by Josh on Oct 7, 2004 21:48:47 GMT -5
[glow=blue,2,300]I'll probably come back and write a little more, but let me just say I was very impressed with what I've seen so far. The Batman to me has performed very solidly. Each episode seems to be getting better and better. I first was a little bothered by the show being described as "kid friendly", but after watching, I didn't even notice. Matsuda's The Batman is off to a great start ! [/glow]
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Post by Batman Prevails on Oct 7, 2004 22:05:29 GMT -5
It's way too early to make a judgement, yet I think it is clear that this show is way more directed towards the kids today than BTAS. While Batman used to have a mysterious, gritty, dark and somewhat depressing feel to it this show is on an edgier side and a rather new approach. So far the show has focused more on action, eye candy, gadjets and hip-ness than on a deep storyline. The characters designs are rather bold and kinda hard to swallow of those who grew and worshipped BTAS and the movies. But I'm sure this show will have some brilliant bits as well.
What I've been missing so far is the certain Batman-feel which gave me the chills whenever I watched BTAS or the Burton movies.
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Post by DarknessFalls on Oct 8, 2004 14:11:17 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]I say I have to agree with you there. The "Batman-feel", just isn't the same with The Batman series. But you have to admit it, The Batman is more of a Cartoon series rather than an animated one. However, everything about "The Batman" series work for me, and I'm enjoying. Hey it is still Batman whether he is older or younger ;D[/glow]
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Post by Longbowhunter on Oct 8, 2004 22:25:06 GMT -5
I havent said too much about the new show yet because like a lot of people I have been trying to give it a chance to grow on me.After all the episodes we've seen so far,I have to say my opinion of the show is not that great.I just dont feel like I'm watching a Batman show-Batman just doesnt seem like Batman.I also REALLY dislike the radical reinventions of the villians-Bane was reduced to an Incredible Hulk ripoff and even the Joker didnt seem like any other version of the Joker seen before.The episode with Catwoman was pretty good although the idea of Batman losing control of all his Bat-Wave gadgets just because Catwoman stole his belt seemed kind of stupid.The relationship between Alfred and Bruce seems to be handled very well-Alfred is especially well written.To be honest,I just havent been able to get into the new show-but I'll keep trying.
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Post by re on Oct 8, 2004 22:43:24 GMT -5
I simply can't get enough of this show, I love it and want MORE of it.
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Post by /\/\att on Oct 9, 2004 0:02:24 GMT -5
I havent said too much about the new show yet because like a lot of people I have been trying to give it a chance to grow on me.After all the episodes we've seen so far,I have to say my opinion of the show is not that great.I just dont feel like I'm watching a Batman show-Batman just doesnt seem like Batman.I also REALLY dislike the radical reinventions of the villians-Bane was reduced to an Incredible Hulk ripoff and even the Joker didnt seem like any other version of the Joker seen before.The episode with Catwoman was pretty good although the idea of Batman losing control of all his Bat-Wave gadgets just because Catwoman stole his belt seemed kind of stupid.The relationship between Alfred and Bruce seems to be handled very well-Alfred is especially well written.To be honest,I just havent been able to get into the new show-but I'll keep trying. Thanks for sharing your thoughts longbow! This is a great example of a mature, well thought out analysis of the show! Very constructive even where you find fault!
I'm glad you're going to keep trying! Try to hold on til the end of the season.....just trust me on this one...
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Oct 9, 2004 0:21:02 GMT -5
I want to thank everyone who has posted so far. And for those who haven't yet, c'mon, share your opinions! Also, Matt raised a great point that I had overlooked, namely the issue of flaming or saying "this sucks" without supporting your views. I don't think *any* review thread, anywhere or on any website, should resort to attacks and unsupported negativity. I'd feel terrible to have opened up that possibility at such a wonderful message board as this one, and I'm glad Matt chimed in as quickly as he did, being SuperMod and all.
The point of a thread like this--at least the reason I started this thread, was to list the things you do like about this series, or in certain cases the things you don't like, and above all be respectful and constructive at all times. This is a great board with some great posters, and I love reading these comments in a thread I started.
To anyone who has misread my comments, I personally like this Joker design, but I also feel that more effort could have been made to make him more recognizably "Joker" to the mainstream audience, to give him a radical new look in certain areas while keeping him more in-line in other areas. In other words, something between what we have now and the classic look.
Generally speaking, and I hope this point was made well enough in my entire post, I'm a fan of this show, and I believe it can become a great show. Right now, I have to rate it a "B+" and I hope by the end of this season I'll be able to say that I think the show is an "A." Most people would be happy with that "B," but this is Batman, and frankly, I know this crew is capable of delivering a show that's even better than it is now--and I think that they will.
--Larry
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Post by 10percent on Oct 9, 2004 1:15:28 GMT -5
I love it.
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ROBOTRON
Gotham Tourist
Cybernetic Humanoid
Posts: 0
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Post by ROBOTRON on Oct 9, 2004 8:58:26 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]I like it so far...it can only get better. The storyline has kept me involved, as long as the writing is solid...I will continue to watch. I don't like the "Jackie Chan" artwork as I've said 100 times already, but I'm warming up to it as long as they keep making the episode interesting. I'll take good writers over eye candy anyday. I also hope they try to cater to us "grown" folks (like myself) instead of the intended age group (probably teenagers) who are fans of the last Batman toons.
JLU just hasn't lived up to the hype.[/color][/shadow]
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Post by behindtheclock on Oct 9, 2004 9:18:21 GMT -5
Well, today my main objection to the new series is only four episodes and now reruns?? Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, You're Killing Me!!!!!! Seriously though, I'm sure this was a move by the WB but I was disappointed when I found out and that is a very good sign for Matsuda and his team. Keep up the good work! We'll be watching...
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Xtreme
Gotham Tourist
Posts: 24
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Post by Xtreme on Oct 9, 2004 11:35:18 GMT -5
I'm lovin' the series. The animation is just fabulous, the gadgets are cooler than ever, and the episodes have been awesome. Can't wait for Mr. Freeze, Clayface, and FireFly.
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Post by TJM on Oct 9, 2004 12:17:48 GMT -5
I like the series so far, I think it's improved with each episode. I also think it will continue to get better as this creative team continues to find their way. I love the animation and character designs, still not sure about the Bat-Wave, and I could do with less jokes, but overall I have enjoyed each episode and I look forward to what's in store.
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BatWulf
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Hey! You kids! Get away from my action figures!
Posts: 245
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Post by BatWulf on Oct 10, 2004 7:23:47 GMT -5
First off, I'm loving this show so far, and I'd rate it a B+ at the moment. I'm not thrilled with the Penguin's protrayal. I got used to the look rather quickly, but his behavior is simply atrocious. I guess I'm stuck in the 'gentleman thief' image of the early Nineties comics. The Devito portrayal in Batman Returns left me cold and, at times, ill. And that's just what this Penguin reminds me of, the crude, raw-fish-chewing, over-sexed monster with flippers for hands who never quite fit into a tux. Still, he could be a lot worse (he could be a lot more like the Devito portrayal). I could live without the Batwave, I think. It really seems to be more of a marketing gimmick to me right now. "Hey kids, run out and spend too much of your parents' money on toys that will interact with your TV!" And in the show, it's already proven to be a liability, when Catwoman was able to control various devices with nothing more than a batarang. But the Joker, who has polarized so many...I have to say, I love him. He's my all-time favorite villain, and while I'd rather see him in his classic purple suit, I think his new look is simply wonderful. Completely, totally insane. And the way he's animated! He leaps about with the fluidity many people only dream of achieving. There's a certain beauty to it, something almost primal in some of his poses. I only hope that continues, once he's in a more traditional outfit. One major thing that's bothering me is the Villain of the Week Syndrome to which the show seems to have fallen victim. Don't get me wrong, I love to see Batman fighting his traditional Rogues Gallery. But one of the things I really loved about BTAS, especially in the early seasons, was that he fought ordinary criminals as well, not just the big costumed baddies. And it seems to me that this series would be perfect for such a thing. After all, Batman is still just starting out in a city that's been plagued by crime for decades. There should be far more encounters with 'normal' criminals, from purse snatchers to organized drug kingpins (though that might be a bit too much for a kiddie show). Right now, it's starting to feel like the old Adam West series, with a Special Guest Villain every week. Okay, I've rambled enough. Overall, I love the show, and I can't wait for new episodes. Nor am I having an easy time waiting for new action figures, especially more villains!
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ROBOTRON
Gotham Tourist
Cybernetic Humanoid
Posts: 0
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Post by ROBOTRON on Oct 10, 2004 20:06:28 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]Figures I drool for:
The Batman:
Bane (both) Mr. Freeze Firefly Scarface Robot Penguin w/Kabuki twins Catwoman[/shadow][/color]
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Post by DarknessFalls on Oct 20, 2004 18:08:32 GMT -5
[glow=green,2,300]Well, just to make things short, everything about the show is OK. The new Joker and Bane looks very cartoon-ish but it's cool. The plot is good and the only unfavorable concept about this show is the overexaggerated dialogues (The characters talk to themselves too many times.) [/glow]
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Post by BillionaireBruce on Oct 21, 2004 19:21:28 GMT -5
I love everything about this show. The redesigned characters, the story, the toys.
The only thing I hate is having to wait for so looong to see Mr. Freeze ;D
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Oct 22, 2004 12:52:35 GMT -5
I can't wait to see Freeze, either. I love his new design, and it'll be refreshing to see a Freeze (in regular continuity, discluding his appearance in a 1999-2000 episode of "Batman Beyond") where he isn't just a disembodied head in a jar! Clancy Brown is a great voice actor for the role; and though many may gripe about this, I'm glad that they are going for Freeze's Silver Age roots rather than aping what Batman: The Animated Series did. If you want to see the tragic Freeze pining for Nora, watch the Paul Dini episodes. I don't think we need this series to copy that format in order to tell a cool (pardon the pun) Mr. Freeze story.
I also like the design for Man-Bat. I like the promise of seeing more of this character, period. We only had 2 Man-Bat episodes in the entire run of B:TAS and TNBA, and that's a real pity. This character is such a great foe for the Dark Knight. I'm also thrilled to see this new Scarface, who, and this may just be me, seems like he shares a certain resemblance to Al Pacino's "Scarface," which is a clever nod and update for the character.
I have a soft spot for all the "B-list" villains that are just as fascinating as the "A-listers" everyone knows, and when it comes down to it, I'd rather see an episode with Man-Bat, Clayface, Scarface, Bane, or yes, even Cluemaster, before seeing the umpteenth Joker story.
It's to this show's credit that I'm actually *looking forward to* seeing the Joker again, and where they take his character. Because usually, when I hear Joker's in an episode, my reaction is "Not again!" But this time? I'm thinking, "I wonder what they're going to do next!"
I'll also officially join the chorus of people glad to hear the repeats are over as of Oct. 30th. While I think repeating these episodes is a good thing (as it allows the show to gain more of an audience with those who missed these on first airings, and spaces the season a bit), I also think 3 weeks of repeats is enough. I'm glad they didn't hold off until the first week of November (sweeps period). I can think of no more appropriate a time to debut a new Batman episode than the day before Halloween.
--Larry
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