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Post by Batdan on Oct 13, 2005 12:13:19 GMT -5
This hasn't been created yet, so I'm taking the opportunity, if that's OK.
SPOILERS and random musings AHEAD
-- Loved that last page. It's been 20 long years and Golden Age/Earth 2 Superman is back. This will be fascinating how they'll reconcile all this.
-- My greatest beef with the first Crisis in '85 was that I felt that DC never really followed through on revamping the DCU. They couldn't resist tinkering with the re-established continuity and I think you could argue things are almost as messy now as they were when they went "Earth crazy" in the '70s and early '80s. I have the sense that they are embracing their past this time but also using it to set new rules in the future instead of just trying to erase things willy nilly.
-- I haven't read the miniseries that led up to this (Villains United, OMAC, etc.) because, frankly, who has the time and money, so I was a little confused but was able to ride with it. Reading DC's Crisis Counseling helped.
-- The slaughter of the Freedom Fighters was hard to watch from a humane standpoint but I have to say any move to reduce the number of superpowered beings in the DCU is a good move. The DCU is way, way, way overpopulated with superheroes and villains and I actually think the fans and creators would both be better served with a more limited roster of characters. Less is more, in my opinion. Part of what makes superheroes super is that they are special. The more you have, the more the pool is diluted.
-- In 1985, I applauded the consolidation of the multiverse. But since the current DCU has become so overpopulated, I have to say it wouldn't bother me if DC opted to return to a multiple continuity format, just so long as they were maintained separately -- in other words, no crossovers. For example, wouldn't it be great if the JSA had its own Earth again?
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 13, 2005 12:58:39 GMT -5
Perfectly fine Batdan. I just finished reading my copy and I'm glad to see a topic started.
My thoughts:
The Freedom Fighters, while great from a nostalgia standpoint, haven't been used effectively in years, they might as well be dead. Uncle Sam can come back at any time. I'll miss Phantom Lady though... Bizarro killing The Human Bomb was really cool! I wonder how many of the villains were taken out as a result of that fight?
Ratcatcher - don't care.
Seeing the Spectre appear above Gotham with the Batsymbol on his chest could be a coincidence or it could be a clue. Especially since it was shown more than once.
Who is the 'her' that is referred to when the speaker is talking to GA Superman? Could it be Powergirl or is it Supergirl? Those are the most logical choices I can come up with.
So now we've got 3, wait - scratch that, 4 Luthors running around. Two in Villains United, one here and Luthor from the anti-Earth (Earth S?). Hmm...
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Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Oct 13, 2005 19:32:18 GMT -5
20 years ago...seems like yesterday. My initial thoughts were similar to yours, Batdan. Funny thing, I can't help thinking about all those readers who may not have been born or were in diapers when COIE first came out. Wonder how confusing it must be for them. Like you, Batdan, I haven't been following the mini series 'cept for the Crisis Counseling segments. If this wasn't such a blatant sequel to COIE I'd probably pass on it also, but the return of the GA Superman is just too tempting to pass up. I hope this won't be a let down. I rarely find a post of interest on the DC boards but this is an interesting theory: dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000046096&tstart=30Also, found this article on Newsarama. Worth a read if you're in the dark about the DCU before the 1st Crisis. www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=261f5541049a19adbbcbd3be9b080562&threadid=46268 |
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Post by Batdan on Oct 13, 2005 23:06:55 GMT -5
Excellent links, Blocko. Thanks for posting them.
Definitely worth reading, especially for those who need a primer in DC history.
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 14, 2005 10:24:02 GMT -5
 I don't think I need to say anything else.... |
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 14, 2005 10:30:23 GMT -5
Maybe one other thing to say - here's one of the covers for issue 2:  |
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Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Oct 14, 2005 20:05:29 GMT -5
A return to the age of heroes........*sigh*
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Post by Batrez on Oct 14, 2005 22:10:00 GMT -5
ok im confused...there are two luthors...one looks young and fit and the other looks abit older and bigger. Your saying there could be more luthors? I thought the orginall idea for infinity crisis is to make it one world and one of each? ANd this superman is not the same superman that one wanted to kill superman in the batman & superman issue? Where is that superman..the last we saw of him was with metron....
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2005 7:44:29 GMT -5
ok im confused...there are two luthors...one looks young and fit and the other looks abit older and bigger. Your saying there could be more luthors? I thought the orginall idea for infinity crisis is to make it one world and one of each? Correct. We have 4 Luthors currently running around the DCU. Villains United Luthor Superman/Batman & Mockingbird Luthor Earth 2 Luthor (the good guy from the anti-earth) Alexander Luthor (the guy with the red hair at the end of IC #1) I * think* that Superman was from a different timeline. I'd have to go back and read the individual issues to be sure though. The Superman that shows up in IC #1 is the Golden Age Superman who, along with his wife Lois Lane, Superboy and Alexander Luthor, were still alive at the end of Crisis on Infinite Earths - but they were in a sealed off dimension. The last time this particular Superman was seen was in the Kingdom mini-series a few years back. Hope that helps. |
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2005 8:35:51 GMT -5
Here's one of the covers for issue 3:  |
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2005 8:36:55 GMT -5
Here's one of the covers for issue 4:  On this cover we've got Cyborg, Hawkgirl, Red Tornado, Kyle Rayner, Starfire, Hawkman, GA GL/Sentinel, Shift (Metamorpho's clone from Outsiders), Soundwave, Kilowag, Supergirl, Herald (former Titan), Firestorm, Guy Gardner, Donna Troy, Bumblebee, Animal Man, and at the very center, Jade. Hope that helps. |
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Post by Batdan on Oct 15, 2005 17:38:20 GMT -5
ok im confused...there are two luthors...one looks young and fit and the other looks abit older and bigger. Your saying there could be more luthors? I thought the orginall idea for infinity crisis is to make it one world and one of each? ANd this superman is not the same superman that one wanted to kill superman in the batman & superman issue? Where is that superman..the last we saw of him was with metron.... Check out those links posted higher up. They'll go a loooong way toward explaining things. |
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Post by mcdav32 on Oct 15, 2005 21:04:59 GMT -5
Also it may not be a bad idea for someone to pick up the trade of Crisis on Infinite Earths, you can pretty much find them at most comic stores and on ebay, that will go a long way to help you figure out what is going on and also about multiuniverses
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 16, 2005 10:43:39 GMT -5
Seeing the Spectre appear above Gotham with the Batsymbol on his chest could be a coincidence or it could be a clue. Especially since it was shown more than once. Here's the pic I'm referring to in the above quote:  |
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Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Oct 16, 2005 12:45:28 GMT -5
I really hope that it's NOT forshadowing, just the creative team messing with us. Hal as the Spectre was enough. Bring back Corrigan and be done with it. Crisis was a huge deal for fans in the 80s, but new fans reading it now probably won't see it as much more than a beautifully rendered, excellent read. Since they didn't grow up reading about a multiverse, the significance of it's elimination probably won't affect them on the emotional level that it did us. One thing about Crisis was that the heroes remained united and heroic ; in Infinite Crisis we begin with the unraveling of the DCU, not only through external threats but also as a result of the shattering of inter personal bonds (Clark, Bruce, Diana). As I stated in an earlier post I hope that this Crisis will bring about a return to a heroic age of comics.
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Post by Batdan on Oct 16, 2005 15:31:55 GMT -5
I agree with you that fans today would think little of the original Crisis. In fact, as a story in and of itself, I don't think it's all that special. What's special is what it signified -- the end of the multiverse system.
Still, I think it's important for younger readers to understand the context in which this new Crisis is being told.
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Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Oct 17, 2005 20:41:15 GMT -5
Ach,..kids today with their "one universe, single continuity", when we were young we had to understand a whole multiverse....lol.
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Post by jlavaia on Oct 21, 2005 11:03:16 GMT -5
ok im confused...there are two luthors...one looks young and fit and the other looks abit older and bigger. Your saying there could be more luthors? I thought the orginall idea for infinity crisis is to make it one world and one of each? Correct. We have 4 Luthors currently running around the DCU. Villains United Luthor Superman/Batman & Mockingbird Luthor Earth 2 Luthor (the good guy from the anti-earth) Alexander Luthor (the guy with the red hair at the end of IC #1) there are currently 3 Luthors. Earth-2 Luthor died in crisis and was never good. Earth-2 is the Golden Age. earth-2 Luthor looks like Alexander Luthor (Earth-3 Luthor) only older. he's dead. the Villains United Luthor is the Silver Age Luthor, who was supposedly erased from existence after Crisis on Infinite Earths. the Mockingbird Luthor is the Luthor we now from post-crisis and post zero hour, the one who was president. the silver age Luthor can be considered Earth-1 Luthor because after Crisis the multiverse became one and we were left with Earth- Prime. so to sum things up: Earth-Prime Luthor: Mockingbird/president Earth-1 Luthor: Society/Silver Age/wore battlesuit during Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-3 Luthor: Alexander Luthor/hero from earth with Crime Syndicate/has re hair/young/survived crisis with Earth-2 Superman, Lois Kent, and Earth-X Superboy |
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 21, 2005 11:22:36 GMT -5
Correct. We have 4 Luthors currently running around the DCU. Villains United Luthor Superman/Batman & Mockingbird Luthor Earth 2 Luthor (the good guy from the anti-earth) Alexander Luthor (the guy with the red hair at the end of IC #1) there are currently 3 Luthors. Earth-2 Luthor died in crisis and was never good. Earth-2 is the Golden Age. earth-2 Luthor looks like Alexander Luthor (Earth-3 Luthor) only older. he's dead. the Villains United Luthor is the Silver Age Luthor, who was supposedly erased from existence after Crisis on Infinite Earths. the Mockingbird Luthor is the Luthor we now from post-crisis and post zero hour, the one who was president. the silver age Luthor can be considered Earth-1 Luthor because after Crisis the multiverse became one and we were left with Earth- Prime. so to sum things up: Earth-Prime Luthor: Mockingbird/president Earth-1 Luthor: Society/Silver Age/wore battlesuit during Crisis on Infinite Earths Earth-3 Luthor: Alexander Luthor/hero from earth with Crime Syndicate/has re hair/young/survived crisis with Earth-2 Superman, Lois Kent, and Earth-X Superboy Those are pre-crisis Luthors you're talking about. Post crisis, Earth 2 is the same Earth that the Crime Syndicate comes from (anti-earth). There are only 2 Earths currently - Earth 1 and Earth 2. That Luthor is good and (last I knew) is still alive. He's (I believe) seperate from the Alexander that was shown at the end of Infinite Crisis #1. Here's the book I'm referring to. We also have the original post-crisis Luthor - the one running around in the battle suit - who was Mockingbird in VU. The 'alternate' Luthor was the one leading the Society and now we have Alexander Luthor back from the pocket universe he was in with GA Superman and Lois. |
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Post by jlavaia on Oct 21, 2005 12:21:54 GMT -5
i had forgotten about the post-crisis Alexander. and yes he is a seperate character, but the same. like the 2 Lex's. so basically there are 2 Alexander Luthors' and 2 Lex Luthors'. but what i'm wondering is how the post-crisis Lex survived being erased from existance. maybe he's not the only one supposedly erased that survived. maybe we'll see the return of Earth-2 Huntress, Helena Wayne.
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 21, 2005 14:13:55 GMT -5
i had forgotten about the post-crisis Alexander. No big deal - it's tough to keep some of these characters straight right now - and that's coming from someone that's been up on my DC multiverse for over 30 years! ;D I don't think we'll see a return of Helena Wayne unfortunately. The new Batwoman comic should have (SPOILER!) Barbara in the roll. I wonder though if this is how Jason Todd is back and older. |
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Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Oct 23, 2005 15:04:14 GMT -5
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Post by jlavaia on Oct 24, 2005 9:37:29 GMT -5
that is a good theory, and he is the only living character that has any knowledge of the there ever being a multiverse (well except for Society Luthor, Earth-2 Superman, Lois Kent, and Alexander Luthor), and it would show why Harbinger had to die, and why Luthor is trying to kill Donna Troy (she's the new Harbinger), and remember when he killed Pariah, it was because he already knew too much, as he also had knowledge of the multiverse.
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 25, 2005 10:43:24 GMT -5
That spoiler that I mentioned above might have a bigger impact on the DCU than I initially anticipated. SPOILER:
The rumors of a new Gail Simone helmed Batwoman series are continuing to heat up. Though, when I initially heard the rumor back in early September, the project was still being touted as a new Batgirl series. Presumably, the title was changed to Batwoman because calling Barbara Gordon a “girl” would just sound strange at this point…
Anyway, the latest rumor is this: Simone may be reuniting with her Action Comics cohort, John Byrne on the new Batwoman. And there’s also a rumor that Black Canary might be up for her own series as well…
So, if both founding members get their own titles, where would this leave Birds of Prey? Simone may have dropped an interesting hint a while ago when she started a thread which raised the speculative possibility of the book continuing after the One Year Gap without ANY returning members…
Yes, there is a link there to the article mentioned in the above spoiler - check the 'started a thread' part of the spoiler. |
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Post by Batlaw on Oct 25, 2005 11:15:41 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but please say its not true. (and for cryin out loud at least not Byrne!?)
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 25, 2005 11:18:43 GMT -5
for cryin out loud at least not Byrne!? I'm with you there. Personally, I can't stand Johnny's art style anymore. I think I've become biased/jaded based on many of the comments I've read from the man himself over the years. I know I won't be picking up this book (if the rumor is true). |
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Post by Batlaw on Oct 25, 2005 12:03:49 GMT -5
Well I dont know anything about him personally... (with all do respect to his contributions and abilities) I've never thought much of his art. He should never be allowed to draw woman! His style has just for the longest time seemed very "lazy" and half hearted (kinda like Frank Miller's writing! lol)
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Post by gotham95 on Oct 25, 2005 14:21:03 GMT -5
I would like to see Adam Hughes on that book or Ed Benes.
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Post by jlavaia on Oct 25, 2005 16:30:15 GMT -5
i'd love to see Hughes do any book, the covers he does for Catwoman are phenomenal. Byrne isn't the right artist for a title that predominantly features woman. Benes' work on Birds is great, but i think they should bring Ron Adrian back to the title, as i liked his art the best on the title.
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Post by DoctorZero on Oct 28, 2005 20:01:58 GMT -5
This is interesting, but somehow I don't feel DC is going to say the PP has been, essentially, controling the DC Universe for the last 20 years.
I think the outcome will be that PP has had some powers which allows him to control portions of reality. It explains how he's been able to play with Power Girl's mind.
As for 52 and One Year later, it's a sales gimmick to get people interested in the changes. By jumping ahead and then telling people how it all came about they hope people will support the rebooted books.
I'm under the opinion that the Secret Society Luthor is the Silver Age Luthor, possibly brought back by PP or somehow survived just like Kal-L did. Time will indeed tell.
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