Frank Miller's Batman

[blackmask]

I am one of the few people that does not like "Batman Year One." I think he wrecked a lot of those characters.

[snooch2dnooch]

really? i think it's his best actually, better than the dark knight returns

[jlavaia]

blackmask said:

I am one of the few people that does not like "Batman Year One." I think he wrecked a lot of those characters.

"year one" from Frank Miller is elsworlds, so how can he wreck the characters? it's takes place on an alternate earth and doesnt feature the real versions of the characters.

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

blackmask said:

I am one of the few people that does not like "Batman Year One." I think he wrecked a lot of those characters.

"year one" from Frank Miller is elsworlds, so how can he wreck the characters? it's takes place on an alternate earth and doesnt feature the real versions of the characters.

Year One does take place in continuity. It was planned to be and has been ever since it was written. Just like Superman: Man of Steel, Year One is the beginnings of the character.

[jlavaia]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

"year one" from Frank Miller is elsworlds, so how can he wreck the characters? it's takes place on an alternate earth and doesnt feature the real versions of the characters.

Year One does take place in continuity. It was planned to be and has been ever since it was written. Just like Superman: Man of Steel, Year One is the beginnings of the character.

Year One was erased from the current continuity during Zero Hour. after this occured, Frank Miller himself stated that it's apart of his own continuity, the one that eventual becomes TDKR, which is now a part of the new multiverse as Earth-31.

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

batfan1990 said:

Year One does take place in continuity. It was planned to be and has been ever since it was written. Just like Superman: Man of Steel, Year One is the beginnings of the character.

Year One was erased from the current continuity during Zero Hour. after this occured, Frank Miller himself stated that it's apart of his own continuity, the one that eventual becomes TDKR, which is now a part of the new multiverse as Earth-31.

Year One is still in continuity. I haven't found any evidence that states otherwise. And yes I am aware of Miller's DKU, and it's been said that Year One is the only one of Miller's Batman works that is in regular DCU continuity thus far.

[jlavaia]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

Year One was erased from the current continuity during Zero Hour. after this occured, Frank Miller himself stated that it's apart of his own continuity, the one that eventual becomes TDKR, which is now a part of the new multiverse as Earth-31.

Year One is still in continuity. I haven't found any evidence that states otherwise. And yes I am aware of Miller's DKU, and it's been said that Year One is the only one of Miller's Batman works that is in regular DCU continuity thus far.

the words of the guy who wrote the story seem to be sufficient evidence, as he has stated that Year One is a part of his Batman continuity and universe. but if you'd like to examine facts from the comics we can, Year Two was retconned from existence after Zero Hour as well. this cannot be debated as post Zero Hour, Joe Chill did not kill Bruce's parents, so Year Two could not have happened and it was erased fom the current continuity. now Year Two follows Year One. if Year Two did not occur, how could Year One? also the entire first volume of Catwoman, which throughtout the entire series recounts her past, there is no mention of any of the events from Year One, except that it's stated that Selina Kyle was never a prostitute. Year One clearly shows Selina as a prostitute. Year One is a great story and it's a shame that it was erased from the current history of batman, maybe final crisis will bring it back, but at this present moment in the comics, Year One took place on Earth-31, not New Earth.

[Christopher Jones]

I suppose you could argue over whether Selina in Year One was a prostitute or a dominatrix. Technically, there's a difference... ;-)

C.

[/\/\att]

christopherjones said:

I suppose you could argue over whether Selina in Year One was a prostitute or a dominatrix. Technically, there's a difference... ;-)

C.

Yeah..a big one. lol. A domme (at least a real one) doesn't have sexual intercourse...so a pretty major ethical difference in most people's eyes.

[Christopher Jones]

My head hurts at the thought of debating the relative ethics of prostitution versus being a hyper-sexualized jewel thief...

Chris

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

batfan1990 said:

Year One is still in continuity. I haven't found any evidence that states otherwise. And yes I am aware of Miller's DKU, and it's been said that Year One is the only one of Miller's Batman works that is in regular DCU continuity thus far.

the words of the guy who wrote the story seem to be sufficient evidence, as he has stated that Year One is a part of his Batman continuity and universe. but if you'd like to examine facts from the comics we can, Year Two was retconned from existence after Zero Hour as well. this cannot be debated as post Zero Hour, Joe Chill did not kill Bruce's parents, so Year Two could not have happened and it was erased fom the current continuity. now Year Two follows Year One. if Year Two did not occur, how could Year One? also the entire first volume of Catwoman, which throughtout the entire series recounts her past, there is no mention of any of the events from Year One, except that it's stated that Selina Kyle was never a prostitute. Year One clearly shows Selina as a prostitute. Year One is a great story and it's a shame that it was erased from the current history of batman, maybe final crisis will bring it back, but at this present moment in the comics, Year One took place on Earth-31, not New Earth.

Let's go to Wikipedia shall we?

Following Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC rebooted many of its titles. Year One was followed by Batman: Year Two, but the 1994 Zero Hour crossover erased it from continuity. In another continuity re-arrangement, Catwoman: Year One (Catwoman Annual #2, 1998) posited that Selina Kyle had not actually been a prostitute, but, rather, a thief posing as one in order to commit crimes.

The story was continued in the 2005 graphic novel Batman: The Man Who Laughs, following up on Gordon informing Batman about the Joker, and thus recounting their first official encounter.

In 1998 Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale created Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory, two 13 issue limited series that recounted Batman's first, second, and third years as a crime-fighter, also re-telling of the origins of Two-Face and Dick Grayson. Two other stories, Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk tie into the same time period of Batman's career.

Launched in 1989 following the success of the film Batman, the title Legends of the Dark Knight examines crime-fighting exploits from the first three to four years of Batman's career. This title rotated in creative teams and time placement, but several stories directly relate to the events of Year One, especially the first arc "Batman: Shaman". Following the title's 2007 cancellation, Batman Confidential began publication, depicting Batman sometime between Year One and The Long Halloween.

Miller has stated that Batman: Year One exists in the same continuity as the other storylines in his "Dark Knight Universe", consisting of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, its sequel Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Spawn/Batman, All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder, and the upcoming Holy Terror, Batman![1] There is even an early scene in DKR where Gordon and Wayne are reminiscing on a scene in Batman Year One where Wayne meets Gordon pretending to drink, yet it was only ginger ale.

So:
Only Year Two was erased, not Year One.
Selina being "in the business" never happened.
Year One continues into and is inspiration for many other stories of Batman's early career.
Year One exists in both the DCU and the DKU.

[electri]

hmmm confused

[Batlaw]

Looking back on Year One, its lost a lot of luster. Still good but not spectacular as I once considered it. I always took it as another look into the Batman's origin / first days... not Nec. definitive or absolute... as there is now no real such thing. The Catwoman was my least fave bit of Year One.

[jlavaia]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

the words of the guy who wrote the story seem to be sufficient evidence, as he has stated that Year One is a part of his Batman continuity and universe. but if you'd like to examine facts from the comics we can, Year Two was retconned from existence after Zero Hour as well. this cannot be debated as post Zero Hour, Joe Chill did not kill Bruce's parents, so Year Two could not have happened and it was erased fom the current continuity. now Year Two follows Year One. if Year Two did not occur, how could Year One? also the entire first volume of Catwoman, which throughtout the entire series recounts her past, there is no mention of any of the events from Year One, except that it's stated that Selina Kyle was never a prostitute. Year One clearly shows Selina as a prostitute. Year One is a great story and it's a shame that it was erased from the current history of batman, maybe final crisis will bring it back, but at this present moment in the comics, Year One took place on Earth-31, not New Earth.

Let's go to Wikipedia shall we?

Following Crisis on Infinite Earths, DC rebooted many of its titles. Year One was followed by Batman: Year Two, but the 1994 Zero Hour crossover erased it from continuity. In another continuity re-arrangement, Catwoman: Year One (Catwoman Annual #2, 1998) posited that Selina Kyle had not actually been a prostitute, but, rather, a thief posing as one in order to commit crimes.

The story was continued in the 2005 graphic novel Batman: The Man Who Laughs, following up on Gordon informing Batman about the Joker, and thus recounting their first official encounter.

In 1998 Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale created Batman: The Long Halloween and Batman: Dark Victory, two 13 issue limited series that recounted Batman's first, second, and third years as a crime-fighter, also re-telling of the origins of Two-Face and Dick Grayson. Two other stories, Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk tie into the same time period of Batman's career.

Launched in 1989 following the success of the film Batman, the title Legends of the Dark Knight examines crime-fighting exploits from the first three to four years of Batman's career. This title rotated in creative teams and time placement, but several stories directly relate to the events of Year One, especially the first arc "Batman: Shaman". Following the title's 2007 cancellation, Batman Confidential began publication, depicting Batman sometime between Year One and The Long Halloween.

Miller has stated that Batman: Year One exists in the same continuity as the other storylines in his "Dark Knight Universe", consisting of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, its sequel Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Spawn/Batman, All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder, and the upcoming Holy Terror, Batman![1] There is even an early scene in DKR where Gordon and Wayne are reminiscing on a scene in Batman Year One where Wayne meets Gordon pretending to drink, yet it was only ginger ale.

So:
Only Year Two was erased, not Year One.
Selina being "in the business" never happened.
Year One continues into and is inspiration for many other stories of Batman's early career.
Year One exists in both the DCU and the DKU.

Wikipedia is not the definitive say so for comics. each entry is written by a regular person. you or me can write articles for wikipedia, and wikipedia has been proven wrong so many times that you really cant believe anything you read on that site. so if the only evidence you are showing is an article from a site that isnt fact based, than you haven't proven anything to me. i've shown evidence from issues of the comics itself. state comics that prove anything that happened in Year One actually did and show that it's a part of the New Earth continuity and not a part of Earth-31's continuity and i can believe it and admit i was mistaken, or we can discuss that. but i'm not mistaken and there is no proof from the comics, as the comic proof clearly shows that the story takes place outside of the regular continuity.

[blackmask]

snooch2dnooch said:

really? i think it's his best actually, better than the dark knight returns

Ya, it is probably his best but even that is not that good.

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

batfan1990 said:

Let's go to Wikipedia shall we?



So:
Only Year Two was erased, not Year One.
Selina being "in the business" never happened.
Year One continues into and is inspiration for many other stories of Batman's early career.
Year One exists in both the DCU and the DKU.

Wikipedia is not the definitive say so for comics. each entry is written by a regular person. you or me can write articles for wikipedia, and wikipedia has been proven wrong so many times that you really cant believe anything you read on that site. so if the only evidence you are showing is an article from a site that isnt fact based, than you haven't proven anything to me. i've shown evidence from issues of the comics itself. state comics that prove anything that happened in Year One actually did and show that it's a part of the New Earth continuity and not a part of Earth-31's continuity and i can believe it and admit i was mistaken, or we can discuss that. but i'm not mistaken and there is no proof from the comics, as the comic proof clearly shows that the story takes place outside of the regular continuity.

Dude, it's in both New Earth's and Earth 31's continuities. Besides, there are tons of Batman's stories that refer to Year One.

- The Man Who Falls shows an exact frame from Year One from when Bruce was fighting that pimp.

- The Man Who Laughs is continued from Year One, as the Joker was mentioned at the end of Year One mentioning he was poisoning the resevoir.

- Year One shows Gordon thinking Harvey Dent is Batman, and that is also brought up in The Long Halloween.

Why can't you just except that Year One IS in regular DCU continuity?

Seriously, if anyone agrees, can I get some backup here?

[J-Man]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

Wikipedia is not the definitive say so for comics. each entry is written by a regular person. you or me can write articles for wikipedia, and wikipedia has been proven wrong so many times that you really cant believe anything you read on that site. so if the only evidence you are showing is an article from a site that isnt fact based, than you haven't proven anything to me. i've shown evidence from issues of the comics itself. state comics that prove anything that happened in Year One actually did and show that it's a part of the New Earth continuity and not a part of Earth-31's continuity and i can believe it and admit i was mistaken, or we can discuss that. but i'm not mistaken and there is no proof from the comics, as the comic proof clearly shows that the story takes place outside of the regular continuity.

Dude, it's in both New Earth's and Earth 31's continuities. Besides, there are tons of Batman's stories that refer to Year One.

- The Man Who Falls shows an exact frame from Year One from when Bruce was fighting that pimp.

- The Man Who Laughs is continued from Year One, as the Joker was mentioned at the end of Year One mentioning he was poisoning the resevoir.

- Year One shows Gordon thinking Harvey Dent is Batman, and that is also brought up in The Long Halloween.

Why can't you just except that Year One IS in regular DCU continuity?

Seriously, if anyone agrees, can I get some backup here?

I thought Year One was in a continuity on its own, in its own universe created by Frank Miller.

Personally, I don't care either way, considering it's a comic book and arguing over fictional continuities is incredibly pointless, especially if both sides of the argument are unwilling to see the other's point(s).

[jlavaia]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

Wikipedia is not the definitive say so for comics. each entry is written by a regular person. you or me can write articles for wikipedia, and wikipedia has been proven wrong so many times that you really cant believe anything you read on that site. so if the only evidence you are showing is an article from a site that isnt fact based, than you haven't proven anything to me. i've shown evidence from issues of the comics itself. state comics that prove anything that happened in Year One actually did and show that it's a part of the New Earth continuity and not a part of Earth-31's continuity and i can believe it and admit i was mistaken, or we can discuss that. but i'm not mistaken and there is no proof from the comics, as the comic proof clearly shows that the story takes place outside of the regular continuity.

Dude, it's in both New Earth's and Earth 31's continuities. Besides, there are tons of Batman's stories that refer to Year One.

- The Man Who Falls shows an exact frame from Year One from when Bruce was fighting that pimp.

- The Man Who Laughs is continued from Year One, as the Joker was mentioned at the end of Year One mentioning he was poisoning the resevoir.

- Year One shows Gordon thinking Harvey Dent is Batman, and that is also brought up in The Long Halloween.

Why can't you just except that Year One IS in regular DCU continuity?

Seriously, if anyone agrees, can I get some backup here?

-a story cant take place in 2 seperate continuities. New Earth Batman and Earth-31 Batman are 2 seperate characters. i only saw 1 Batman in Year One.

- the Man who falls was a story from secret origins, recapping things, and due to the year it came out speaks of other things from Batman's history that have been retconned, such as Joe Chill killing the Waynes.

- The Joker was not in Year One just mentioned at the end, and as the 2 earths are similiar, i'd say it's a god chance that the Joker could poison a resevoir in each earth, and no where in the man who laughs does it state that it follows up directly with Year One, and Batman Confidential shows exactly when the man who laughs takes place.

- so the Earth-31 Gordon thought Dent was Batman around the same time that the new Earth Gordon did. Long Halloween takes place during Batman's first year, and that comment doesnt show that Year One is in continuity, only that the beginings of some of the characters started the same, which Frank Miller himself states, it isnt until year two of each Batman's career that things start to change.

we can do this all day. the fact remains that Year One takes place on Earth-31. i've yet to see evidence otherwise. it was in continuity, and it can be debated that it was after Zero Hour, but at the present moment, it's not. once it became known as Earth-31, it ceases to be a part of New Earth continuity. the direct continuation to Year One is Holy Terror, Batman. that's coming from Frank Miller. are you gonna tell me that Batman fought Al Qaeda during his first year as Batman in New Earth continuity?

[Dark Nightwing]

Continuity is probably the biggest mess for comics. One author that pays attention to what they are doing and tries not to contradict his own work still makes mistakes in continuity. So if one person can not keep their own story straight, what happens when multiple authors are thrown into the mix? Earths 1 through 5,839,378,457,238,274,857,389,282 is what you get. Why argue over the mistakes and the different takes? I like to think of comic books in the way of ancient poets. They know the basic story of what happens, but they do not tell the same story each time. This would be generally accepted because the audience would not be able to compare the variations. This is the difference between the Odyssey and the comic world. With having all variations in print and viewable, there is a discrepancy. What I am saying is that comic book characters are legends. Everyone knows why Bruce Wayne became Batman, but no one is going to tell it the same. This is the evolution of a character to fit in the generation and it is inevitable.

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

batfan1990 said:

Dude, it's in both New Earth's and Earth 31's continuities. Besides, there are tons of Batman's stories that refer to Year One.

- The Man Who Falls shows an exact frame from Year One from when Bruce was fighting that pimp.

- The Man Who Laughs is continued from Year One, as the Joker was mentioned at the end of Year One mentioning he was poisoning the resevoir.

- Year One shows Gordon thinking Harvey Dent is Batman, and that is also brought up in The Long Halloween.

Why can't you just except that Year One IS in regular DCU continuity?

Seriously, if anyone agrees, can I get some backup here?

-a story cant take place in 2 seperate continuities. New Earth Batman and Earth-31 Batman are 2 seperate characters. i only saw 1 Batman in Year One.

- the Man who falls was a story from secret origins, recapping things, and due to the year it came out speaks of other things from Batman's history that have been retconned, such as Joe Chill killing the Waynes.

- The Joker was not in Year One just mentioned at the end, and as the 2 earths are similiar, i'd say it's a god chance that the Joker could poison a resevoir in each earth, and no where in the man who laughs does it state that it follows up directly with Year One, and Batman Confidential shows exactly when the man who laughs takes place.

- so the Earth-31 Gordon thought Dent was Batman around the same time that the new Earth Gordon did. Long Halloween takes place during Batman's first year, and that comment doesnt show that Year One is in continuity, only that the beginings of some of the characters started the same, which Frank Miller himself states, it isnt until year two of each Batman's career that things start to change.

we can do this all day. the fact remains that Year One takes place on Earth-31. i've yet to see evidence otherwise. it was in continuity, and it can be debated that it was after Zero Hour, but at the present moment, it's not. once it became known as Earth-31, it ceases to be a part of New Earth continuity. the direct continuation to Year One is Holy Terror, Batman. that's coming from Frank Miller. are you gonna tell me that Batman fought Al Qaeda during his first year as Batman in New Earth continuity?

Only Year One is in New Earth continuity and the DKU. Why is it so hard to accept this?

EDIT: I want you to keep an eye on this page. The many mega fans at Newsarama may know better than us.
forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=143211

[snooch2dnooch]

are you guys really fighting about this?

[All Star Batman]

snooch2dnooch said:

are you guys really fighting about this?

We're debating. It's just harmless discussion over comic books. Everyone debates these things. Especially continuity. It's really just DC's fault anyway because of all the crises.

[jlavaia]

snooch2dnooch said:

are you guys really fighting about this?

this is a very friendly debate, and i am enjoying this discussion very much as the Batman comic board, which imo is the corner stone of this site has been dead lately when it comes to discussions like this one. there is no animosity here. it may seem like it, but all great debates get heated when they are good.

[jlavaia]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

-a story cant take place in 2 seperate continuities. New Earth Batman and Earth-31 Batman are 2 seperate characters. i only saw 1 Batman in Year One.

- the Man who falls was a story from secret origins, recapping things, and due to the year it came out speaks of other things from Batman's history that have been retconned, such as Joe Chill killing the Waynes.

- The Joker was not in Year One just mentioned at the end, and as the 2 earths are similiar, i'd say it's a god chance that the Joker could poison a resevoir in each earth, and no where in the man who laughs does it state that it follows up directly with Year One, and Batman Confidential shows exactly when the man who laughs takes place.

- so the Earth-31 Gordon thought Dent was Batman around the same time that the new Earth Gordon did. Long Halloween takes place during Batman's first year, and that comment doesnt show that Year One is in continuity, only that the beginings of some of the characters started the same, which Frank Miller himself states, it isnt until year two of each Batman's career that things start to change.

we can do this all day. the fact remains that Year One takes place on Earth-31. i've yet to see evidence otherwise. it was in continuity, and it can be debated that it was after Zero Hour, but at the present moment, it's not. once it became known as Earth-31, it ceases to be a part of New Earth continuity. the direct continuation to Year One is Holy Terror, Batman. that's coming from Frank Miller. are you gonna tell me that Batman fought Al Qaeda during his first year as Batman in New Earth continuity?

Only Year One is in New Earth continuity and the DKU. Why is it so hard to accept this?

EDIT: I want you to keep an eye on this page. The many mega fans at Newsarama may know better than us.
forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=143211

i've been reading the many posts, and no one has really stated evidence that it's in continuity, especially since most people agree that alot of things in the story arent a part of the main continuity. the first year of New Earth Batman and Earth-31 Batman are very similiar. the second year is when the major differences can be seen. also someone on that board reiterated my point about Joker though (and erroneously added that Batman Confidential isnt in continuity because he doesnt like the changes it's bringing about, such as changing more and more stuff from Year One) and how Batman Confidential does conflict with Year One. Year One was in continuity, but due to all the continuity changes from all the big events over the years, alot of the story fell out of continuity, so what DC did was take that story and officially make it part of the DKU (Miller stated that it was always part of that universe, but it wasnt officially made a part of it until after 52) and had the universe take place on Earth-31. when Holy Terror, Batman comes out this will truly be seen as it takes place right after Year One. i'm very interested to see what elements from Year One enter the story. and then of coarse it'll add more proof to this discussion.

[All Star Batman]

How about this: we can say Year One is in continuity with both New Earth and Earth 31, but while many parts no longer take place in New Earth, nothing has changed in Earth 31. Let's just agree to disagree.

[jlavaia]

Year One was in continuity, it is not at this present moment, especially since Earth-31 was created solely for the DKU that Year One is a part of. i agree that some of the things that happened in Year One also occured in the first year of New Earth Batman's career, but the story itself is set on Earth-31. unless some issue of some DC Comic set in the DCU (which covers all the 55 earths) changes things back to how they were, Year One is not in New Earth continuity. but who knows, after Final Crisis everything may be completely changed, set back to old ways, or restarted completely. you really cant know with DC's big events.

[All Star Batman]

jlavaia said:

Year One was in continuity, it is not at this present moment, especially since Earth-31 was created solely for the DKU that Year One is a part of. i agree that some of the things that happened in Year One also occured in the first year of New Earth Batman's career, but the story itself is set on Earth-31. unless some issue of some DC Comic set in the DCU (which covers all the 55 earths) changes things back to how they were, Year One is not in New Earth continuity. but who knows, after Final Crisis everything may be completely changed, set back to old ways, or restarted completely. you really cant know with DC's big events.

Debate settled. We both win. As for Final Crisis, I really hope they don't do a total reboot of everything. That'd be just like what they did to Spider-Man but on a much grander scale.

[False Face]

(Sorry, I've been away for awhile and didn't know such a debate was going on but here's my 2 cents)

Continuity is always a messy but fun thing to look at in my opinion. Being with comics for about 2 years, I haven't been thinking too much about continuity since there are so many titles with so many teams working on them. It's hard to keep so many details straight. Also, when you have what seem to be infinity origin stories for characters, the company may have there "canon" origin story, and I'll respect that, but I may always have another origin story as my personal canon origin.

I have noticed that every Crisis seems to shake things up and with Final Crisis just around the corner, I'm curious to see what things change or stay the same. If you say Year One is the story for Batman's origin, I'll go with it. If we were hung up on Selina's role, I'll be honest and say I missed her the first time I read it. Also, it is possible to have the same origin story for two different time lines since all the Earths came from a copy of New Earth before being changed at the end of 52; that's how I look at the debate and I agree that both sides won.

[blackmask]

batfan1990 said:

jlavaia said:

Year One was in continuity, it is not at this present moment, especially since Earth-31 was created solely for the DKU that Year One is a part of. i agree that some of the things that happened in Year One also occured in the first year of New Earth Batman's career, but the story itself is set on Earth-31. unless some issue of some DC Comic set in the DCU (which covers all the 55 earths) changes things back to how they were, Year One is not in New Earth continuity. but who knows, after Final Crisis everything may be completely changed, set back to old ways, or restarted completely. you really cant know with DC's big events.

Debate settled. We both win. As for Final Crisis, I really hope they don't do a total reboot of everything. That'd be just like what they did to Spider-Man but on a much grander scale.

OK, this might be a stupid question, but what earth is the main earth that is in the comics?

[blackmask]

I think all the multiple earths and crisises are really confuseing, maybe there should be a page on LOG explaining it...