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Post by DrGreenEvil on Sept 19, 2006 14:30:38 GMT -5
OK both parts of this show were awesome. This is the definitive Batman cartoon/show period. But Is it just me or did the story telling go down when it became TNBA ? BTAS had some out of the box adventures. He wasn't always just dealing with his villains. But it seems in TNBA it was just a straight good guy vs bad guy show. All the eps were Batman vs (insert villain). Not that many outside the box adventures. What do yall think ? DrGreenEvil
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Post by Batlaw on Sept 19, 2006 15:09:09 GMT -5
OK both parts of this show were awesome. This is the definitive Batman cartoon/show period. But Is it just me or did the story telling go down when it became TNBA ? BTAS had some out of the box adventures. He wasn't always just dealing with his villains. But it seems in TNBA it was just a straight good guy vs bad guy show. All the eps were Batman vs (insert villain). Not that many outside the box adventures. What do yall think ? DrGreenEvil I dont completely agree... at least not from the perspective of any changes being in the "negative". TNBA did have a deliberate emphasis on "family" and a younger tone by comparison, but somehow it also managed to appear "darker". While it didnt have the same type or number of original "expositional" episodes, it didnt need them by that time IMO.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Sept 19, 2006 15:23:00 GMT -5
That's a pretty good question. If I had the Volume 4 DVD's, I'd be able to give my answer, but I don't own that last one yet. However, I think it depends on what you are looking for. Some probably view one as better than the other and vice versa. I personally am just happy to watch either of them. I think it really is a mixed bag as far as quality. For instance, I think the Penguin is done much better in TNBA. I think the Mad Hatter still had some good stories, but that they messed up his design for TNBA. I think they come out to be a draw.
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Post by wayneson on Sept 19, 2006 16:27:15 GMT -5
I have always admired the visual impact of the animation featured in TNBA, and the re-worked designs of the characters were a matter of personal taste - for example, the Penguin and the Scarecrow were definite improvements for me, but I didn't care for the redesign of the Joker or the Mad Hatter - but I think the storytelling and characterizations (the quality of the writing, in general) was superior in BTAS. It may have something to do with DrGreenEvil's point about TNBA being more formulaic, in which Batman and/or his allies are faced off with (insert villian) and away we go...but there were exceptions to this, with some excellent episodes that examined and pushed the envelope of the Batman mythology. "Mad Love," "Old Wounds" and the shocking "Over the Edge" are in that category. But more often than not, when TNBA moved away from their established formula, the results were weak - "Love Is A Croc," "Critters" and "Mean Seasons" come to mind. In contrast, some of the best, most well-written episodes of BTAS didn't feature the Joker, Catwoman or the Penguin, but in fact were the ones that strayed from formula. "Beware the Gray Ghost", "Paging the Crime Doctor", "Appointment at Crime Alley" and "It's Never Too Late" all featured rich back histories and character development that broke away from the Batman vs. Arch Villian templates to create something that, more often than not, approached the level of great modern literature. I often use many of these episodes in my high school English classes as a way for students to analyze and plot character development. There may be a personal bias in place because BTAS came first, and so TNBA is always going to be unfairly compared to the original, in much the same way that the current "The Batman" series is compared to both now. But when all the unique things we loved about BTAS are considered - the original music composed for each episode, the elaborately painted title panels, the richly textured backgrounds, the expanded, 2-part storylines (mostly absent from TNBA) - I strongly prefer the original version.
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Post by Blackgate on Sept 19, 2006 16:43:10 GMT -5
For me, the visual designs of TNBA was superior to BTAS, but the story did get worse. To me the reason is it seemed that all the TNBA episodes seemed to be showing the end of these villains, kinda like the producers knew it was going to be the last season. Also, a lot of the Villains passion and reason for thier crimes were no longer part of the picture. BTAS had summed a lot of stuff up so TNBA didnt have that much to work with. TNBA designs in my opinion where all around awesome to the point where its hard to watch some of the designs from BTAS, like catwoman and batgirl.
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Post by coliv1977 on Sept 19, 2006 18:11:09 GMT -5
I really didn't notice much of a difference in the stories, but the character designs ib BTAS are far superior in my opinion
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Post by J-Man on Sept 19, 2006 19:43:35 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]People will have varying opinions on this for quite some time. In my opinion, there are two sides to TNBA, as a show, which make it comparable,and sometimes better, than BTAS. First, let's look at the writing: The show's writing is on par with BTAS. Certainly the show has its moments where the writing is questionable, mainly in the episodes which center around exclusive TNBA villains such as Roxy Rocket or Farmer Brown. But BTAS had that, too, so the argument is flawed. There is a different theme to this series, as Batlaw said, and that is the purpose of family. While it has a family atmosphere, that doesn't take anything away from it as a show. In fact, I thought it strengthened it. Personally, I believe "Old Wounds" is one of the best animated Batman episodes ever, mainly because of the love-hate relationship expressed between Bruce and Dick. On that same note, "Mad Love" explained the twisted relationship between the Joker and Harley Quinn, something BTAS only elaborated on to a point. This series was, by far, darker, and many episodes were more "adult" than BTAS.
The second point is the animation. This is where I think TNBA falters, if at all. The simple animation works, but at the same time, the new designs failed to match the general feel of the show. The designs were a bit tacky, especially the Riddler and the Joker, who have been "too simplified," if those are the correct words. However, there were some improvements over BTAS, especially with supporting characters like Gordon and Bullock, who often appeared "underdrawn" in BTAS (at least to me). Bane's re-design was probably the best of the bunch.
TNBA was a continuation of BTAS, so there really aren't any major differences, that I can tell. They work together as a continuous series, both with their flaws, and both with their positive attributes.[/shadow]
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Post by ??The Riddler?? on Sept 19, 2006 21:36:21 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]I saw quite a difference in the stories now and then, BTAS in my opinion was better in the episodes but TNBA had some very unique episodes as well. The character designing I thought was better but some old designs I liked better, Mad Hatter is a good example, I prefer his look in BTAS. I liked how TNBA had a darker feel to it and the character designs such as Riddler were a bit darker. They are no different really but both have the weaknesses and strengths. [/shadow]
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Post by Batlaw on Sept 19, 2006 22:55:41 GMT -5
Well put JMan... Despite the fact I would have to agree, that TNBA did have a stronger emphasis on more "super villain" / traditional rogues gallery confrontations, I consider it pretty natural progression to BTAS. Just as it was natural evolution of the series to begin including other heroes and eventually to evolve into JL/JLU. Where BTAS was the begining, it was natural and necessary for Bats to "start at the bottom and deal with more common threats such as the more common street criminals and "crime bosses" like Thorn Etc. Regardless of the banner or title, there were certainly "dud" episodes now and then. Even with the stronger presence of the formal rogues gallery, I wouldnt classify TNBA as having been "formulaic" though. The stories were just as broad and involved or even complex as within BTAS... and as its been said, occationally moreso. They certainly werent "over simplified" / formulaic.
By and large I do believe I actually prefer the atmosphere, tone, and designs of TNBA more than BTAS. Every villain at least appeared if not even behaved more sinister and threatening in TNBA IMHO. Even the Joker with his streamlined design had more of an edge to him.
Gordon was a huge improvement in my eyes as was Bullock. How, if at all had Alfred been altered? He was basically the same no? But Bane, Scarecrow, Hatter, Penguin, Riddler, Croc, Catwoman (the blue skin was odd but somehow worked?)... everyone was improved upon IMO.
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Post by wayneson on Sept 20, 2006 19:30:17 GMT -5
Bane, Scarecrow, Hatter, Penguin, Riddler, Croc, Catwoman (the blue skin was odd but somehow worked?)... everyone was improved upon IMO. I think it would be very hard to make a case for the TNBA Riddler as an improvement over the BTAS version. He was only featured in cameo roles, with no "Riddler" episodes at all to discuss - in BTAS, he was the main antagonist in at least three eps that I can think of. His skintight leotard and foppish affectation in TNBA was cringeworthy. As for the TNBA Croc...well, I just really missed Aron Kincaid's voiceovers more than anything else, but the BTAS Croc had an element of pathos that was missing from the TNBA version; in TNBA he was just a thug. With regard to the writing of both series, I guess it comes down to a matter of taste. To just say the writing was as good in TNBA as it was in BTAS doesn't convince me of anything other than what a particular writer's opinion is. To be sure, there were several very well-written episodes in TNBA, as I mentioned in my earlier post about this topic. But these few do not compare to the dozens of BTAS episodes that featured real character development and solid narratives. I'll admit that BTAS had a few "clunkers," but my point was that overall BTAS was a stronger series.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Sept 20, 2006 20:19:43 GMT -5
Bane, Scarecrow, Hatter, Penguin, Riddler, Croc, Catwoman (the blue skin was odd but somehow worked?)... everyone was improved upon IMO. I think it would be very hard to make a case for the TNBA Riddler as an improvement over the BTAS version. He was only featured in cameo roles, with no "Riddler" episodes at all to discuss - in BTAS, he was the main antagonist in at least three eps that I can think of. His skintight leotard and foppish affectation in TNBA was cringeworthy. As for the TNBA Croc...well, I just really missed Aron Kincaid's voiceovers more than anything else, but the BTAS Croc had an element of pathos that was missing from the TNBA version; in TNBA he was just a thug. My are my thoughts on the two as well. I could have lived with Riddler's design in TNBA if he would have had a time to shine in the series. And in the design teams defence, they had to change their look for Riddler to look more like Batman Forever's Riddler. I don't know why Two Face did not have to be changed for TNBA. As for Croc, I like both designs. I like the one for BTAS better because it seems more realistic. Not to mention that Croc was a force to be reckoned with in his solo episodes such as Vendetta and Sideshow.
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Post by Batlaw on Sept 20, 2006 21:07:09 GMT -5
Youre also talking a comparison of Approx. 85 Episodes (many being two-parts) Vs. Approx. 24 22Min Eps. And again, by that time the characters had essentially been "developed" as well as the studio and staff all deliberately "lightening up" the show. Despite it all, they managed to produce primarily winners. Especially by current standards which are the epitome of over simplified and formulaic "villain of the week" shows. The Batman being a prime example... but of course it is deliberately targeting a younger audience and faces a different overall "political" climate than it's predecessors (for better or worse). Also its still a matter of personal opinion and preference... and mine, in regards to design alone happens to be toward those of TNBA. Even the Riddler. I am a fan of both the series and really dont make too much of a distinction between the two other than an updated sleeker appearance. I hold the entire Timm-verse in the highest regard and consider it all to be the quintessential interpretations of the entire mythos. I love BTAS and adore TNBA. I prefer the aesthetic look and design of TNBA to BTAS. I agree BTAS had grander and darker and more "original" stories overall, but I don't consider either to be inferior to the other in any sense.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Sept 20, 2006 23:52:21 GMT -5
One design that I thought was much better in BTAS was Ventriloquest and Scarface. The Ventriloquest had glasses where you could see his eyes. That kind of ruins some of the mystique about him. As for Scarface, he seemed more puppet like. Maybe it was to remind kids so they don't freak out when it is destroyed. You guys may agree with me, but that design rubs me the wrong way, even more than Croc and Riddler.
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filmationbatmanfan
Legions Of Gothamite
Let's face it BatMite you're a nice guy but you're also a royal pain! 1977
Posts: 69
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Post by filmationbatmanfan on Sept 21, 2006 12:35:17 GMT -5
I love both series just about equally. Both The Animated Series on Fox and TNBA or as I prefer to call it, the Gotham Knights each brought something valuable to the table.
Regarding the redesigns and revamps, I liked most of them. The only ones I hated were the oversimplification of the Joker. No red lips. The Riddler's design was fine, but he never got to shine in any episodes. He was just a background character. The character I had the biggest problem with was Mr. Freeze. They had something really good with his storyline in the Fox animated episodes and in SubZero. But I felt they ruined it by turning him into an evil head in a mechanical body. I did like how they altered the sound of Michael Ansara's voice in Cold Comfort. In the sense of family, I'd have to say it was more of a dysfunctional family. I missed the dual voice identity that Kevin Conroy did for Batman and Bruce Wayne on Fox. Bruce in public became more of a darker person like his Batman alter ego who never smiles and is impossible to please, explaining why Dick, then Tim in Return of the Joker, and eventually Barbara all cut ties and left him. I did like the new look Bruce had with the slick hair and blue eyes and the black business suit. The slicker designs all around I felt were good on the Gotham Knights episodes because on Fox, Bruce Wayne, Commissioner Gordon, and most of the male characters all looked like they needed to go on the Jenny Craig diet. As for episode quality, every show has its stinkers. For me, both versions of the Timmverse Batman had stinkers. For me, on Fox it was Mudslide and Paging the Crime Doctor. On the WB, it was Love is a Croc and Critters. Cheers.
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Post by Batlaw on Sept 21, 2006 12:49:20 GMT -5
Well put. Personally though, I absolutely LOVE the Freeze redesign... maybe most of all lol. Yeah I couldve lived w/o the robot/spider head as it was perhaps a bit much or extreme. But It never really offended me. I just really liked the full figure design for Freeze in TNBA.
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Post by DrGreenEvil on Sept 21, 2006 14:15:18 GMT -5
Yeah the whole Mr Freeze as a head in a spider thing I could have lived without. But unlike most of yall, I liked the ep "Love is a Croc". I love it when villains team up. Also there was alot of emotion as to why they all acted the way they did in the ep. But at the same time I believe the Riddler in TNBA should have had his own ep. And I also didn't really like the oversimplification of the Joker. This is just me, but I personally believe that the only reason the show got graphically overhauled was so crossovers with the superman show would be easier. And I personally liked the designs of BTAS. To me they seemed more realistic.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Sept 21, 2006 15:51:58 GMT -5
I liked Freeze in the spider part. To me, the best Freeze of all time was in Batman Beyond. There is no beating that.
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Post by wayneson on Sept 21, 2006 17:11:47 GMT -5
Everybody has expressed their opinions with solid points on this topic. I'm just like everybody else who believes that both of these series are really the best depictions of the Batman world to date. "Batman Begins" and the sequels set to follow have the potential to do just as well, but these animated series (both versions) will always be my favorite "Batman" material. Here's hoping that somehow, someday Dini/Timm and company will have a chance to continue their unique interpretation of the Dark Knight and his world.
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crusader185
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
DCAU Rules!
Posts: 189
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Post by crusader185 on Jan 3, 2007 19:22:18 GMT -5
TNBA is DEFINETLY not as good as BTAS. Everybody just loses all their emotion. Everybody is always super grumpy, and Batman is Always frowning. You just don't feel bad when something goes wrong for him because you can't connect with him, or Bruce Wayne. (Scarecrow is awesome though) TNBA had better some things, but I always thought the stories were better on BTAS.
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Post by HUSH on Mar 17, 2007 15:02:33 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased, since B:TAS was on when I was younger, and although I watched both shows religiously, Batman the Animated Series is more deeply rooted in my memories and gets a more emotional response from me when I watch it. Regardless, I do hold it in much higher regard. My main reason is that everything- plot, characterizations, and art (which many do like better in TNBA)- is simplified to extremes in The New Batman Adventures. First of all, We lose the conflicted, relatable villains. The most unfortunate example of this is Mr. Freeze, who goes from being a character you truly pity and sympathize with in B:TAS to a pure evil, truly dead-to-emotions villain. I don't mind the mechanical body nearly as much as I do the loss of his humanity. Two-Face also becomes a pretty average gangster-type villain. This happened some in B:TAS as well, after his two-part origin and before the great episode "Second Chance." I just think the character is much more fascinating when they're exploring his twisted, tragic psyche than when he's simply playing cops-and-robbers with Batman. Batman never mentions the fact that this loathsome villain was once his best friend, either. I could go on, but suffice to say, B:TAS had tons of gray area, and it's just lost in TNBA, IMO. The three-dimensional characters become 2-D. There is another side of this issue as well, and that is Batman. Of course I don't have a problem with him being darker in TNBA, as that the natural progression his personality would take over time, IMO, but I just get the sense that his character becomes simplified as well. In B:TAS he would often reflect on his actions, show emotion over a case or situation (he was a wreck in "Two-Face pt.II), and otherwise show some sign that he had emotions and a conscience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me there was a substantial decrease in such behavior in TNBA. I know Bats is private and inward, and that's how it should be, but he's going to show emotion sometime, even if it's when he's alone. You just can't relate to a hero who is as emotionless as Mr. Freeze. Also, as was mentioned earlier, the plots often become much more "Batman vs. [insert bad guy]" than they had been. This one I don't feel quite as strongly about, since we have some real winners, like "Over the Edge" and "Old Wounds." Mad Love is great as well, but don't forget, the story was originally in the B:TAS tie-in comic series Batman Adventures. For this reason I almost consider it as much a B:TAS story as a TNBA one. Lastly is the art style. Many extoll the efficient style used in TNBA, and I definitely am fond of it. Still, I share the sentiment that has already ben stated, that B:TAS was more realistic looking, IMO, and the animation had a more gritty feel to it. TNBA's art is too clean, and just doesn't fit, IMO. It is my opinion that the Timm-style was perfected with JL and JLU, and what we see there is an excellent amalgam of the styles seen in B:TAS, TNBA, and S:TAS.
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Post by BruceBatman on May 27, 2007 15:26:50 GMT -5
I like them both alot! But I do like BTAS better!
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crusader185
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
DCAU Rules!
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Post by crusader185 on May 27, 2007 23:35:00 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased, since B:TAS was on when I was younger, and although I watched both shows religiously, Batman the Animated Series is more deeply rooted in my memories and gets a more emotional response from me when I watch it. Regardless, I do hold it in much higher regard. My main reason is that everything- plot, characterizations, and art (which many do like better in TNBA)- is simplified to extremes in The New Batman Adventures.
First of all, We lose the conflicted, relatable villains. The most unfortunate example of this is Mr. Freeze, who goes from being a character you truly pity and sympathize with in B:TAS to a pure evil, truly dead-to-emotions villain. I don't mind the mechanical body nearly as much as I do the loss of his humanity. Two-Face also becomes a pretty average gangster-type villain. This happened some in B:TAS as well, after his two-part origin and before the great episode "Second Chance." I just think the character is much more fascinating when they're exploring his twisted, tragic psyche than when he's simply playing cops-and-robbers with Batman. Batman never mentions the fact that this loathsome villain was once his best friend, either. I could go on, but suffice to say, B:TAS had tons of gray area, and it's just lost in TNBA, IMO. The three-dimensional characters become 2-D.
There is another side of this issue as well, and that is Batman. Of course I don't have a problem with him being darker in TNBA, as that the natural progression his personality would take over time, IMO, but I just get the sense that his character becomes simplified as well. In B:TAS he would often reflect on his actions, show emotion over a case or situation (he was a wreck in "Two-Face pt.II), and otherwise show some sign that he had emotions and a conscience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me there was a substantial decrease in such behavior in TNBA. I know Bats is private and inward, and that's how it should be, but he's going to show emotion sometime, even if it's when he's alone. You just can't relate to a hero who is as emotionless as Mr. Freeze.
Also, as was mentioned earlier, the plots often become much more "Batman vs. [insert bad guy]" than they had been. This one I don't feel quite as strongly about, since we have some real winners, like "Over the Edge" and "Old Wounds." Mad Love is great as well, but don't forget, the story was originally in the B:TAS tie-in comic series Batman Adventures. For this reason I almost consider it as much a B:TAS story as a TNBA one.
Lastly is the art style. Many extoll the efficient style used in TNBA, and I definitely am fond of it. Still, I share the sentiment that has already ben stated, that B:TAS was more realistic looking, IMO, and the animation had a more gritty feel to it. TNBA's art is too clean, and just doesn't fit, IMO. It is my opinion that the Timm-style was perfected with JL and JLU, and what we see there is an excellent amalgam of the styles seen in B:TAS, TNBA, and S:TAS. You put it better than I ever could.
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Post by BruceBatman on Aug 1, 2007 10:09:36 GMT -5
Maybe I'm biased, since B:TAS was on when I was younger, and although I watched both shows religiously, Batman the Animated Series is more deeply rooted in my memories and gets a more emotional response from me when I watch it. Regardless, I do hold it in much higher regard. My main reason is that everything- plot, characterizations, and art (which many do like better in TNBA)- is simplified to extremes in The New Batman Adventures.
First of all, We lose the conflicted, relatable villains. The most unfortunate example of this is Mr. Freeze, who goes from being a character you truly pity and sympathize with in B:TAS to a pure evil, truly dead-to-emotions villain. I don't mind the mechanical body nearly as much as I do the loss of his humanity. Two-Face also becomes a pretty average gangster-type villain. This happened some in B:TAS as well, after his two-part origin and before the great episode "Second Chance." I just think the character is much more fascinating when they're exploring his twisted, tragic psyche than when he's simply playing cops-and-robbers with Batman. Batman never mentions the fact that this loathsome villain was once his best friend, either. I could go on, but suffice to say, B:TAS had tons of gray area, and it's just lost in TNBA, IMO. The three-dimensional characters become 2-D.
There is another side of this issue as well, and that is Batman. Of course I don't have a problem with him being darker in TNBA, as that the natural progression his personality would take over time, IMO, but I just get the sense that his character becomes simplified as well. In B:TAS he would often reflect on his actions, show emotion over a case or situation (he was a wreck in "Two-Face pt.II), and otherwise show some sign that he had emotions and a conscience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me there was a substantial decrease in such behavior in TNBA. I know Bats is private and inward, and that's how it should be, but he's going to show emotion sometime, even if it's when he's alone. You just can't relate to a hero who is as emotionless as Mr. Freeze.
Also, as was mentioned earlier, the plots often become much more "Batman vs. [insert bad guy]" than they had been. This one I don't feel quite as strongly about, since we have some real winners, like "Over the Edge" and "Old Wounds." Mad Love is great as well, but don't forget, the story was originally in the B:TAS tie-in comic series Batman Adventures. For this reason I almost consider it as much a B:TAS story as a TNBA one.
Lastly is the art style. Many extoll the efficient style used in TNBA, and I definitely am fond of it. Still, I share the sentiment that has already ben stated, that B:TAS was more realistic looking, IMO, and the animation had a more gritty feel to it. TNBA's art is too clean, and just doesn't fit, IMO. It is my opinion that the Timm-style was perfected with JL and JLU, and what we see there is an excellent amalgam of the styles seen in B:TAS, TNBA, and S:TAS. You put it better than I ever could. Wow... Great points!
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Post by To The Batcave! on May 15, 2008 12:59:54 GMT -5
You could not be more correct. while TAS had some of the greatest stories in animation, it seems that all TB is about is a fight with one or more of his enemies. i still like TB but you can't even begin to compare it to TAS, which is better in every single way.
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Post by krazicid8 on May 17, 2008 13:34:28 GMT -5
yessssssssssss
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Post by jossy99 on Jul 24, 2008 4:55:02 GMT -5
i grew up watching both they both have there good points and bad points but i like btas best
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Post by koolkat68 on Jul 31, 2008 14:54:59 GMT -5
loved them both, i do agree with the revamping of penguin and the scarecrow, but the joker with little tiny black eyes i could have done with out, and also every time i watch tnba i cant get past the skinny unhealthy looking commissioner gordon, the introduction of tim drake was also refreshing to
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