Post by BatmAngelus on Aug 4, 2005 15:04:38 GMT -5
We've debated casting for a long time on this forum. However, I think it's more important that we address our vision of what the Joker would be and THEN try to fit that with each of the popular Joker choices that I've seen pop up all over forums.
Let me provide examples:
Does everybody want a Joker who can fight well?
Crispin Glover and Vincent Cassel are there.
Does everybody want a Joker with comedic experience?
Jude Law and Johnny Depp would be good.
Want a Joker who can be truly evil with lots of experience playing villains?
Tim Roth and Willem Dafoe are the men for the job.
JOKER CHARACTERISTICS
I will organize this into three sections:
Looks- What the actor should physically look like
Acting- What acting traits would be most important for Joker
General Protrayal- What traits should be brought across when a Joker actor plays the role
You DO NOT have to organize your rank of importance into three sections. It is entirely up to you as long as you clearly list what you find are the most important characteristics of Joker
Looks:
Relatively tall in height. 5'8"-6'3" seems to be a reasonable range. (Cillian Murphy himself is 5'9", yet nobody complained).
Thin in face and stature.
Has to look younger than Nicholson did (something I've heard from a lot of people). The range of the popular fan choices is from 30-45 years of age.
Acting:
This is a bit tricky, folks. I've done my best to categorize this...
Versatility: being able to take on any side of the Joker whether it's a lousy comedian, a sad but loving husband and father, a mobster, an inept thief, a calmly smiling friendly jokester, a chillingly calm, dark, sadistic psychopath, a laughing maniac, a gleeful murderer, and a cunningly calculating criminal. Basically being able to balance the horror and comedy of the character's actions.
Lack of Familiarity: Are unknowns better than well known actors, even if said actors can play the part well? A complete unknown with excellent acting skills could blow away audiences and make them truly believe that they're watching THE Joker. A more well known actor could possibly lose that illusion, especially if tied to his previous work.
Humility: Being able to let the spotlight focus on Bale for a majority of the film. This has been one of the main criticisms about Jack Nicholson- that he stole the show from Michael Keaton in B89.
Bale Chemistry: Being able to play off well opposite Bale. One of my friends described it like this: "Chemistry with Bale is another important characteritic and almost as vital as the two that I have already mentioned. There is and has always been a strange connection between Batman and the Joker and that must come off well on the silver screen. If I were Nolan, I would not cast any actor for the role without having him read through a few scenes with Bale."
Crazy, slightly high pitched voice
Creepy laugh that sends chills up your spine
General Protrayal
A nack for comic timing, including when you shouldn't really be laughing.
Example: I'm tempted to laugh when I read Joker's joke about a damaged library book in The Killing Joke. But I feel extremely guilty considering that he's juxtaposing it with a bloody, paralyzed Barbara Gordon.
Maniacal, unpredictable, and impulsive.
Example: In Mad Love when Harley calls up Joker to say that she captured Batman. He's calmly scrounging through his papers when the phone rings...and when he picks it up he yells "WHAT!!!!" and then calms back down again. "Harley? Where the heck are you...uh-huh...yeah, yeah...mmm...Batman, eh? Well, you don't say," and then suddenly, out of nowhere..."YOU HAVE WHO?? TIED UP WHERE??!!!!" Again, unpredictable in his demeanor.
An evil creepy villain.
Example: In Mask of the Phantasm when Joker tells Phantasm thathe'll be found "without spleen or head" before blowing up the top floor of Valestra's house.
Ability to physically take on Batman in a fight.
Example: In Batman #1, in his very first encounter with Batman...he practically kicks the Dark Knight's @$$.
A villain who challenges the order of the world and submerges himself into chaos after encountering tragedy.
Example: Another friend of mine described this perfectly. There are two responses to tragedy: crying or laughing it off. Joker is the type that laughs it off. Here, he describes the type of person who laughs it off...
"They would have seen the inevitable pointlessness of life, that all that people hold dear could be obliterated in the blink of an eye, that life itself was a joke as no matter what you do or strive for it will all be stolen from you in the end. The Joker is laughing at the world for taking everything so seriously, and feels compelled to share his understanding by showing everyone how any life can end without rhyme or reason.
This is the justification he has created in his mind to avoid facing the pain of his past, and he has done everything possible to erase the importance of his past life from his mind. The only way he can continue to justify his mindset is by proving it to himself and the world, over and over again. When simply murdering ceases to seem enough, he sets himself the new challenge of proving that violent, senseless death can come for you even when you know it approaches and do everything in your power to stop it. He challenges the police, Batman, Gotham, all of the world to prove him wrong, and they cannot. If that ever ceases to seem enough, he might try to prove that ANYONE being forced through enough tragedy and horror would inevitably end up sharing his point of view, though they likely wouldn't end up laughing about it..."
Obsessed with Batman to the point of not commiting crimes without him.
Example: As described by a friend of mine "I want to see a moment in which the Joker refuses to "perform" without Bats around to be his captive audience. This keeps the whole escalation problem in line, as the debate will emerge in Gotham as to whether or not the freaks would go away if Batman did. In DKR, the Joker was not heard from the entire time Batman was retired and only began killing again after Batman returned. I like that dynamic and hope to see something along those lines. It is as if the Joker is endlessly trying to prove his point to Batman that chaos is better, more fun, and more realistic than order. He is already leaving a calling, card, which means that he is looking for the Batman's attention."
Alright, so this is NOT a Casting Thread, this is simply a JOKER thread. And all you have to do is list those qualities in order of what you think is important. Let me start...
1. Maniacal, unpredictable, and impulsive.
2. Versatility
3. Bale Chemistry
4. Humility
5. A nack for comic timing, including when you shouldn't really be laughing.
6. An evil creepy villain.
7. Lack of Familiarity
8. Creepy laugh that sends chills up your spine
9. A villain who challenges the order of the world and submerges himself into chaos after encountering tragedy.
10. Obsessed with Batman to the point of not commiting crimes without him.
11.Crazy, slightly high pitched voice
12. Looks younger than Nicholson a.k.a. 30-45 years of age.
13. Ability to physically take on Batman in a fight.
14. Thin in face and stature
15. Tall
Just to add, I mainly put the physical stuff in last. If you notice with Nolan's casting in Batman Begins, the actors didn't exactly look like they were lifted off the comic book pages.
Christian Bale wasn't the black haired square jawed Bruce in popular renditions. Michael Caine barely looked like Alfred. Same goes for Morgan Freeman. Cillian Murphy looks younger and more handsome than the Jonathan Crane in the comics. Tom Wilkinson barely cut the mustard.
BUT...the looks were believable. Bale looked like a believable Bruce Wayne with the dark, brooding look countered by the lighthearted smile in the other scenes. Michael Caine looked like a caring butler. Morgan Freeman looked like a wise and trustworthy ally. Cillian Murphy looked like a sleazy, yet intelligent individual with a dark side underneath. Tom Wilkinson looked like a mob boss.
So to me and this series...look when compared to the comics is not as important as how the character's traits are brought across onscreen.
NOW LET THE JOKER MADNESS BEGIN!
Let me provide examples:
Does everybody want a Joker who can fight well?
Crispin Glover and Vincent Cassel are there.
Does everybody want a Joker with comedic experience?
Jude Law and Johnny Depp would be good.
Want a Joker who can be truly evil with lots of experience playing villains?
Tim Roth and Willem Dafoe are the men for the job.
JOKER CHARACTERISTICS
I will organize this into three sections:
Looks- What the actor should physically look like
Acting- What acting traits would be most important for Joker
General Protrayal- What traits should be brought across when a Joker actor plays the role
You DO NOT have to organize your rank of importance into three sections. It is entirely up to you as long as you clearly list what you find are the most important characteristics of Joker
Looks:
Relatively tall in height. 5'8"-6'3" seems to be a reasonable range. (Cillian Murphy himself is 5'9", yet nobody complained).
Thin in face and stature.
Has to look younger than Nicholson did (something I've heard from a lot of people). The range of the popular fan choices is from 30-45 years of age.
Acting:
This is a bit tricky, folks. I've done my best to categorize this...
Versatility: being able to take on any side of the Joker whether it's a lousy comedian, a sad but loving husband and father, a mobster, an inept thief, a calmly smiling friendly jokester, a chillingly calm, dark, sadistic psychopath, a laughing maniac, a gleeful murderer, and a cunningly calculating criminal. Basically being able to balance the horror and comedy of the character's actions.
Lack of Familiarity: Are unknowns better than well known actors, even if said actors can play the part well? A complete unknown with excellent acting skills could blow away audiences and make them truly believe that they're watching THE Joker. A more well known actor could possibly lose that illusion, especially if tied to his previous work.
Humility: Being able to let the spotlight focus on Bale for a majority of the film. This has been one of the main criticisms about Jack Nicholson- that he stole the show from Michael Keaton in B89.
Bale Chemistry: Being able to play off well opposite Bale. One of my friends described it like this: "Chemistry with Bale is another important characteritic and almost as vital as the two that I have already mentioned. There is and has always been a strange connection between Batman and the Joker and that must come off well on the silver screen. If I were Nolan, I would not cast any actor for the role without having him read through a few scenes with Bale."
Crazy, slightly high pitched voice
Creepy laugh that sends chills up your spine
General Protrayal
A nack for comic timing, including when you shouldn't really be laughing.
Example: I'm tempted to laugh when I read Joker's joke about a damaged library book in The Killing Joke. But I feel extremely guilty considering that he's juxtaposing it with a bloody, paralyzed Barbara Gordon.
Maniacal, unpredictable, and impulsive.
Example: In Mad Love when Harley calls up Joker to say that she captured Batman. He's calmly scrounging through his papers when the phone rings...and when he picks it up he yells "WHAT!!!!" and then calms back down again. "Harley? Where the heck are you...uh-huh...yeah, yeah...mmm...Batman, eh? Well, you don't say," and then suddenly, out of nowhere..."YOU HAVE WHO?? TIED UP WHERE??!!!!" Again, unpredictable in his demeanor.
An evil creepy villain.
Example: In Mask of the Phantasm when Joker tells Phantasm that
Ability to physically take on Batman in a fight.
Example: In Batman #1, in his very first encounter with Batman...he practically kicks the Dark Knight's @$$.
A villain who challenges the order of the world and submerges himself into chaos after encountering tragedy.
Example: Another friend of mine described this perfectly. There are two responses to tragedy: crying or laughing it off. Joker is the type that laughs it off. Here, he describes the type of person who laughs it off...
"They would have seen the inevitable pointlessness of life, that all that people hold dear could be obliterated in the blink of an eye, that life itself was a joke as no matter what you do or strive for it will all be stolen from you in the end. The Joker is laughing at the world for taking everything so seriously, and feels compelled to share his understanding by showing everyone how any life can end without rhyme or reason.
This is the justification he has created in his mind to avoid facing the pain of his past, and he has done everything possible to erase the importance of his past life from his mind. The only way he can continue to justify his mindset is by proving it to himself and the world, over and over again. When simply murdering ceases to seem enough, he sets himself the new challenge of proving that violent, senseless death can come for you even when you know it approaches and do everything in your power to stop it. He challenges the police, Batman, Gotham, all of the world to prove him wrong, and they cannot. If that ever ceases to seem enough, he might try to prove that ANYONE being forced through enough tragedy and horror would inevitably end up sharing his point of view, though they likely wouldn't end up laughing about it..."
Obsessed with Batman to the point of not commiting crimes without him.
Example: As described by a friend of mine "I want to see a moment in which the Joker refuses to "perform" without Bats around to be his captive audience. This keeps the whole escalation problem in line, as the debate will emerge in Gotham as to whether or not the freaks would go away if Batman did. In DKR, the Joker was not heard from the entire time Batman was retired and only began killing again after Batman returned. I like that dynamic and hope to see something along those lines. It is as if the Joker is endlessly trying to prove his point to Batman that chaos is better, more fun, and more realistic than order. He is already leaving a calling, card, which means that he is looking for the Batman's attention."
Alright, so this is NOT a Casting Thread, this is simply a JOKER thread. And all you have to do is list those qualities in order of what you think is important. Let me start...
1. Maniacal, unpredictable, and impulsive.
2. Versatility
3. Bale Chemistry
4. Humility
5. A nack for comic timing, including when you shouldn't really be laughing.
6. An evil creepy villain.
7. Lack of Familiarity
8. Creepy laugh that sends chills up your spine
9. A villain who challenges the order of the world and submerges himself into chaos after encountering tragedy.
10. Obsessed with Batman to the point of not commiting crimes without him.
11.Crazy, slightly high pitched voice
12. Looks younger than Nicholson a.k.a. 30-45 years of age.
13. Ability to physically take on Batman in a fight.
14. Thin in face and stature
15. Tall
Just to add, I mainly put the physical stuff in last. If you notice with Nolan's casting in Batman Begins, the actors didn't exactly look like they were lifted off the comic book pages.
Christian Bale wasn't the black haired square jawed Bruce in popular renditions. Michael Caine barely looked like Alfred. Same goes for Morgan Freeman. Cillian Murphy looks younger and more handsome than the Jonathan Crane in the comics. Tom Wilkinson barely cut the mustard.
BUT...the looks were believable. Bale looked like a believable Bruce Wayne with the dark, brooding look countered by the lighthearted smile in the other scenes. Michael Caine looked like a caring butler. Morgan Freeman looked like a wise and trustworthy ally. Cillian Murphy looked like a sleazy, yet intelligent individual with a dark side underneath. Tom Wilkinson looked like a mob boss.
So to me and this series...look when compared to the comics is not as important as how the character's traits are brought across onscreen.
NOW LET THE JOKER MADNESS BEGIN!