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Post by MasterofFear on Aug 6, 2005 23:12:46 GMT -5
i finally had the guts to post this deep thought.... :)no personal bashing please and opinions umm kepp them clean. i was really thinking last night and though about this animated show in comparison to its predecessor: no contest of course but why, through all of its mistakes in storytelling and lack of boldness or intrigue, its mistakes in trueness to comics or this formula of making the bad guy worse than he really is and lack of major story arcs or continuing storylines besides 2parters why??? why am i driven to get up every morning for a new ep and go to this site to see the news and direction its headed. we all know it really does have pretty childish meanings and way lower standards in maturity than the predecessor. it seems less fitting for its movie counterpart. observe: batman begins- mature kickass movie showing bats at his finest. meanwhile... the batman.... child romp of semi-imaturity and flashy animation which makes all villains bad before transformation without sympathy or motives shown just greed or insanity..ex-Man-bat Batman(animated)- shows mature nature of batman and shows sympathy and motives for all villains to make them understood and likeable. Batman forever and batman and robin- childish campfest need i say more but this is not to get at the batman i just think a level of maturity and intelligence is needed to correctly interpret batman(your thoughts) i guess we have grown used to the flashy child cartoon style that is the batman and have enough loyalty to batman to except this into the mainstream media
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 6, 2005 23:34:45 GMT -5
Thanks for posting your thoughts.
I'm not sure that you really understand what The Batman is meant to be in the first place. Every creator has a different vision for their Batman. Burton's was dark and over the top, schumacher's was light, fluffy and over the top.
Many of us older fans fell in love with an Adam West Batman from the 60s...and Super Friends Batman from the 70s/80s. There are different levels and ways you can interpret Batman. Only in the past 15 - 20 yrs has he really been "dark" per say. The Batman harks back to a time where Batman didn't have to be all brooding all the time. He's a hero..and the Batman hits at the base of this. If you don't want that in Batman, then the toon isn't for you. Stop watchin' and stop posting in this board. If you can have an open mind and understand the full scope of Batman (which sadly many younger fans can't seem to do) then thats great too. But please try to understand what their intentions are here. They aren't TRYING to be like the BTAS Batman.
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Post by gotham95 on Aug 7, 2005 0:31:20 GMT -5
One thing I love about Batman is the different interpretations of him. I love seeing how different writers and artists tackle the dark knight. I also enjoy seeing the different mediums on TV and movies. There are different elements to each one that make me like each particular one.
BTAS-I liked the 30's atmosphere with the Timm/Dini combo and the classic vilians. Batman was dark and there was a noir feeling to the show.
The Batman- I like the action and the cool twists to the villians. Stories are faster paced. It really has me hooked.
And so on and so on..
To me it's just like a new creative team has started a new storyarc in a comic book. A fresh start that pulls me in.
So I know I'll always be looking forward to new creative teams on the comics or a new directors take on a movie or new angle on a cartoon. Batman is the character I've grown up with and will always follow.
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Post by wayneson on Aug 7, 2005 1:58:27 GMT -5
There certainly are many different versions of Batman that have been presented, and every fan has their own favorite. It is true that we all grew up with a particular version; since I am in my late forties, the ABC-TV show with Adam West was my introduction to Batman. I'm sure that many of the members of this board were introduced to Batman via the 1989 film, with the original BTAS following three years later, and so on and so forth, up to the KidsWB series that is introducing the character right now to young kids who don't read the comics, haven't seen Batman Begins, and don't post on this board. This cycle will continue - the character will always evolve, always engaging the imagination of a new, young audience while older generations discuss the merits of past representations. It's fun to do that, but we should always remember that no version is "better" than another; each has a valid perspective of Batman, directed to a particular audience. For me personally, I always like to go back to Bob Kane's remarkable origin story, told in only 12 panels, for all I need to know about Batman. When I keep that story in mind, then, for me, Batman must always be brooding, always grim - his parents were killed before his eyes, so he made a solemn vow. If that idea is the basis for your image of Batman, then any lighthearted, humorous, or campy dialogue or actions from the character are like nails on a chalkboard. The fact that I grew up with the goofy, played-for-laughs 1960's TV show doesn't mean that I prefer or even care to watch those shows anymore. I also hated the Superfriends episodes for the same reason, because by the 1970's I had found the origin story and the other early dark, grim tales of The Batman in a dusty anthology from the library - those stories became my frame of reference for the character. From the early 70's into the 80's my only engagement with Batman came through the comics and graphic novels, especially DKR and Year One in 1986 and '87. For me, Batman was never represented properly, in film or TV, until the 1989 film. But for my 10 year-old daughter, who has never read a Batman comic, those lighter, humorous moments in the current animated show are entertaining and fun, just like the crazy fight scenes with an acrobatic Penguin, or the funny midgets that jump all over Batman are fun. I guess my point is that not everyone has the same depth of perspective of the character, and that's OK, because you don't have to understand every element of the writings of Shakespeare to enjoy the songs in West Side Story. She can still appreciate the character on that level, be entertained, and maybe be inspired to find out more. That's what happened to me...
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Post by Faithfulbutler on Aug 7, 2005 2:58:21 GMT -5
I find it hard to add anything new at all to what's been stated above.All interpretations hold new meaning for me and i take them all on their individual merits and do not compare because i don't believe it's warranted or necessary. I can honestly state i have enjoyed all but a single representation of Batman whether it be Animated,live Action or whatever.The one being our old favourite Batman & Robin,i will never forget the frustrated and empty sensation of walking out of the Theatre that day. So don;t take it all so seriously i guess is what i'm trying to say.Take a fresh look at every Artist's representation and try not too compare,you will find it much more enjoyable in my experience.Hell if the Oldies like me and Wayneson can adjust to new things anyone can lol.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Aug 8, 2005 1:54:58 GMT -5
See, to me this series isn't like the campy '60s, nor is it the grim, unfriendly Batman of the '80s and on: This Batman, as I've said time and time again, is clearly rooted in the '70s, taking the tone and characterization and updating it into a modern setting.
The '70s is where Batman truly shined, as we had a Dark Knight who was driven, but not so driven that he wasn't still a *person* inside a mask (and not the other way around), or couldn't have his share of lighter moments and what I often refer to as "gallow's humor," which we've seen plenty of on The Batman.
The plots are large in scope, but still twisted and warped: See "The Laughing Bat," "JTV," "Riddled," and more. I don't understand the bashing of this series, or people referring to it as being unfaithful to the mythology. Granted the early episodes were rough, but so was B:TAS. And frankly, I find myself enjoying the lighter, supervillain stories a lot more than the dark, mobster-driven tales we had in the old days. Animation isn't really meant for character studies. What Timm and co. did was innovative, but could never be done again in today's animation.
What The Batman is doing is injecting a bit of very refreshing FUN into a Dark Knight who could sorely use it. And who here likes Jeph Loeb, by the way? Because I can't see how anyone who enjoys Superman/Batman could take issue with The Batman. Ditto Englehart/Rogers, or O'Neil/Adams. This is classic Batman, it just isn't based on Frank Miller's Batman. And to be perfectly honest, I'd take the O'Neil Batman over Miller's any day of the week.
--Larry
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Post by Scribbler on Aug 8, 2005 2:46:36 GMT -5
Hey folks,
MasterofFear1, I would first of all like to say that I appreciate the desire to have a frank an open discussion over the merits or lack there of of our show.
As a life long fan of Batman in all of his renditions, I can certainly understand having an attachment to one version or another. I am a huge fan of Bruce Timms' Batman, Frank Millers' Darknight, and yes even Adam Wests' own rendition too. I think it is only through change and adaptation that characters like Batman and the other classic DC characters have survived as well as they have. Lets face it...somethings must renew themselves after so many decades or we'd get bored and forget about those heroes as they became less relevant to the world as time moves on. For example, Sherlock Holmes, one of the greatest detectives of literary history....how many of the folks out there on LoG today can say they have actually sat down to enjoy one of his great exploits? Why I would bet very few. This is most likely due less to modern rampant illiteracy than it is the fact that our dear Sherlock no longer seems to relate in any way to the world we live in today. A pity too, to say the least.
And now for the even darker realities of life, my boy... There are greater forces at play behind all the popular media we enjoy. Things that we would all like to ignore, and yet they hold a power too great to be able to do so. What is this dread opponent you face O' MasterofFear1? Market Forces! If you were to examine the varied history of Batman, in all of his various forms seen throughout the bulk of the twentieth century (as discussed so capably above by wayneson and Drizzt2218) you can see how he was forged and reforged over the years to meet the expectations of the day. It is a combination of reinvigorating flagging sales figures as well as reintroducing the franchise to a new era of consumers that motivates change in such popular media creations. In the future I guarantee that there will be an even newer Batman geared to the market forces idea of a newer generation. It will undoubtedly shock and dismay old time viewers who will lament the passing of greatness. My best advice to all those who take issue with our show or any show for that matter is simply this... Become an executive in Hollywood. It is that way that you may be able to ensure the vision of the character you cherish may stay as you wish it. Good luck.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Aug 8, 2005 13:45:11 GMT -5
Mr. Perkins:
Thanks for joining in on the discussion. I very much enjoyed reading your thoughts on the versatility of Batman (and all superheroes for that matter), lamenting the loss of Sherlock Holmes (whose exploits I have read since I was around eight years old or so), and the crack about becoming an executive did elicit a laugh.
Hollywood's a strange place sometimes, but then, so is the entire comic book industry as well. Things go in shifts and cycles. Right now, we may have executives who grew up with and are passionate about seeing lighter, more fun superheroes in animation. In ten years, we may have someone in charge who grew up with B:TAS and champions a revival of a truly dark, Dark Knight.
In the comics, we're seeing a revival of the superfriends-era, the classic Silver Age heroes such as Hal Jordan, while characters from the '80s, such as Blue Beetle, are being needlessly and unceremoniously killed off. In ten years, the next big creator will have grown up with those heroes, and will bring Ted Kord back to life. That's just the way things go.
Fans are interesting because for the most part, they resist change from the period they grew up in, and grew to love. As a creator, there's no luxury to be stubborn. You either change or die. The ones who've been around the longest know this best. If you're truly passionate about your work in the business, you roll with the changes, and learn to be flexible and meet the demands of the times while making sure the work is the best it can be.
As for me, I've read enough different eras to say that I enjoy certain aspects of each version. Batman fighting mobsters doesn't necessarily appeal to me, but delving deep into his psyche and into the psychosis of villains such as Two-Face and The Joker, does. Likewise, if a plot is too outlandish or pointless (such as the mind-reading beautician from the final episode of the Adam West series) I'm turned off, but the first season or so of the Adam West series was gold, and something I'd love to see brought to DVD.
"The Batman" is right in the middle of these two extremes, and it works remarkably well. This series doesn't ignore the history or the mythology, it isn't made by people who don't have a passion for the Batman universe; in fact, I'd say this crew is well-versed in ALL aspects of the mythology, judging by the way they blend, mixing and matching, aspects from all the different eras of the Dark Knight. Heck, it doesn't get any more classic than The Batman fighting a vampire in his first DTV outing...his first villain, after all, was the vampiric Monk. Likewise Hugo Strange, one of the first Batman foes, who later resurfaced in the '70s, and now plays an integral role on The Batman.
Anyway, I've written a lot more than I intended to here, so I'll wrap this up. This is a good discussion, and I've enjoyed reading the thoughts and opinions of everyone at this board.
--Larry
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Post by General Grievous on Aug 8, 2005 17:08:36 GMT -5
I simply love this show a lot and I wouldn't say it's different but unique. I mean every thing about it is unique the villains, story, the design, everything. I think it's a great show and there may be a few mistakes here and there but so what. TNBA TAS had some mistakes too and I loved those shows also and if you don't like this show than don't watch it and don't post on this forum.
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Post by Batlaw on Aug 8, 2005 19:24:36 GMT -5
I got to thinking too...
FORUM:
"A public meeting place or medium for open discussion".
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 8, 2005 20:58:54 GMT -5
I got to thinking too... FORUM: "A public meeting place or medium for open discussion". ...and you're absolutely correct. We encourage constructive and polite adult discussion here....and thats exactly whats happening on this thread thus far. while it is a FORUM it is a PRIVATE forum, so there are rules and guidlines of conduct...but those have been observed perfectly. A great thread so far Masteroffear!
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Post by wayneson on Aug 8, 2005 23:12:38 GMT -5
For example, Sherlock Holmes, one of the greatest detectives of literary history....how many of the folks out there on LoG today can say they have actually sat down to enjoy one of his great exploits? Why I would bet very few. This is most likely due less to modern rampant illiteracy than it is the fact that our dear Sherlock no longer seems to relate in any way to the world we live in today. A pity too, to say the least. I was not a Sherlock Holmes fan until AFTER I was a Batman fan; in a strange way, it was my love for the "detective" aspect of Batman that compelled me to seek out Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories, as well as his Tarzan stories, as a young teenager. Later I discovered the great Basil Rathbone films, before the era of videotape; I would stay up late (or get up early) to watch them on PBS or wherever they played on TV. I always wished that Batman could be depicted the way that Holmes was portrayed by Rathbone in those old films. Whether Bob Kane intended it or not, there are close links between the characters - I would love to see Holmes re-imagined for a modern audience.
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Post by Scribbler on Aug 8, 2005 23:51:37 GMT -5
"I would love to see Holmes re-imagined for a modern audience. " -So would I, wayneson.
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Post by MasterofFear on Aug 9, 2005 14:24:41 GMT -5
you guys are all correct, im not disagreeing. all i am saying if this new show is a different take on batman why so plotless? i mean they should dive a little deeper into this new world for more details so that the major audience would really appreciate it more. if your going to introduce a younger audience to a new type of batman to promote a new more mature batman franchise the same year you might as well make it a bit smarter. I mean if you are going to tweak the characters let us know what you tweaked (origins of joker penguin and bane would be pretty sweet). the older series left no story unexplained and no major chronicle untold.
i would like an explanation for firefly and the riddler. But i am hooked on the show but this post was only questioning my loyalty to this new series. the only character interpretations i didnt like was Mr.freeze and man bat. although they were cool looking they were both kind hearted scientists not pshycotic scientists and vengeful criminals. they make every villain worse than they were in the comic. its hard to like them if there wasnt ever goodness in their hearts( that was why i liked twoface he could be good you were always hoping someday he would get fixed up). the only reason most people like the new vilains is their super cool tweaked looks.
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Post by MasterofFear on Aug 9, 2005 14:26:58 GMT -5
I got to thinking too... FORUM: "A public meeting place or medium for open discussion". thanks matt heres a hero.. ...and you're absolutely correct. We encourage constructive and polite adult discussion here....and thats exactly whats happening on this thread thus far. while it is a FORUM it is a PRIVATE forum, so there are rules and guidlines of conduct...but those have been observed perfectly. A great thread so far Masteroffear!
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Post by Batlaw on Aug 9, 2005 17:55:31 GMT -5
thanks matt heres a hero.. ...and you're absolutely correct. We encourage constructive and polite adult discussion here....and thats exactly whats happening on this thread thus far. while it is a FORUM it is a PRIVATE forum, so there are rules and guidlines of conduct...but those have been observed perfectly. A great thread so far Masteroffear! I just want(ed) to ensure the emphasis remain(s) on "open" and "Polite / adult" conversation. Ultimately I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment of "if you dont like whats t.v, change the chanel". I further fully understand that and accept that when all is said und done, this forum is not a "demecracy" per se. However; I take offense with the near ostrisizing of any member by such unwarranted, aggressive and ignorant concepts as "like it or leave" or any comment(s) that ellude to, or express the sensation that opinions other than "This" or "that", are unwelcome.? Maybe I'm wrong or out of turn? (and any authority here may delete or censor this post at their descression) but thats how some of the replies to this generally harmless and seemingly well intended thread caused me to think and feel.
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Post by MasterofFear on Aug 9, 2005 20:18:21 GMT -5
i get you and to clear all this up i think The batman is awesome and i was just typing an in-head discussion as too why i am hooked to the batman when it was no where near as smart as the first series
and thanks batlaw for observing so vigilantly your intentions were great. keep upholding the (bat)law here is a hero
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Post by reideen1313 on Aug 9, 2005 21:03:28 GMT -5
However; I take offense with the near ostrisizing of any member by such unwarranted, aggressive and ignorant concepts as "like it or leave" or any comment(s) that ellude to, or express the sensation that opinions other than "This" or "that", are unwelcome.? I hope that's not the impression that members have - despite what some people might say (or think). We haven't censored posts on this type of a topic unless they were derogatory or highly inflamitory. If someone wants to say that The Batman is worse than BTAS (or the opposite - TAS is terrible The Batman is the best) - they certainly can - however, they also should be able to explain their statement with a reason; something more than "That's just the way I feel." What about the show makes you feel that way? Is it the animation? Is it the writing? What? If a reason is given, I can accept that and I'm sure most members here can as well, but making a statment just to start a flame war will not be tolerated. Also, making statements that are derogatory in nature and/or are offensive to certain groups of people WILL NOT be accepted. We want LOG to be a place for discussion for everyone. We want people to feel welcome here - that being members of the media, regular guys/girls, kids, etc, regardless of race, religion, sexual preference or the amount of $ in their wallet. If anyone feels that these rules have been violated, please PM me or another member of the admin team - mods, sentries or even Matt - and we will look into the situation right away.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Aug 9, 2005 23:19:34 GMT -5
I agree. I don't believe anybody has flamed or even crossed a line into rudeness here. This has been a good discussion that's been kept very civil and intelligent -- two things that "Legions of Gotham" is well-known for. We have some of the best posters around sharing their thoughts, and we're all bound to disagree on some things.
As for something Master of Fear said, I have to disagree with the statement that "The Batman" is somehow dumbed down or not psychological enough when compared to B:TAS. First, we should all remember that not every episode of B:TAS was a psychodrama; I also think most of TNBA episodes tended to remove the psychological aspects in favor or straight superheroes vs. villains storytelling. And for every "Two-Face" or "Mad Love," there was a "I've Got Batman in my Basement" or "Critters."
Likewise, "The Batman" has had a few episodes with psychological elements, notably the Clayface two-parter, "Meltdown," and "Strange Minds." Penguin's origins and motivations have been more fleshed out than they ever were on B:TAS or TNBA. It took over 100 episodes for B:TAS to talk about Joker's origin, while "The Batman" has referenced it twice in its short run.
Man-Bat's origin in the comics cast him in the role of a mad scientist type, albeit he didn't intend to become a Man-Bat, he still wanted the powers of a bat...this makes him more of a recurring villain. In B:TAS, he only appeared twice, and one of those was his wife! In this series, there are more opportunities for Man-Bat. Likewise, Freeze's origins may not be tragic in this series, but you can't say he's lacking in psychology and reasons for his actions; after all, it's The Batman's fault he's now the way he is. Scarface was handled perfectly, with just as much depth as he was given in the older series, too.
I could go on, but the point is, while this show is different, and while some of the psychology may be understated, it is nevertheless there.
--Larry
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Post by Scribbler on Aug 9, 2005 23:24:08 GMT -5
Hey Guys,
I just wanted to say that LoG is a good forum for folks who enjoy the Batman in all his various forms to come together and chat about it. I think that's great. I applaud the desire to be inclusive of all opinions that are expressed (barring any insanely abusive ones). Heck, if anyone is going to put out about anti opines, you'd think it would be us that actually make the show. In all truth, I think it is very important to hear a variety of opinions from across the spectrum of feelings of the viewers. It helps to give us feedback on the job we are doing. I don't think that we will appeal to all fans of the character as that there are so many interpretations to choose from. Even we of the crew have divergent opinions on how things will or won't playout in our series. To MasterofFear1 and other like minded individuals, I say that it is good to hear what it is you have to say to give a sense of balance to things. At least you approach the issue in a calm and inquisitive manner that has certainly inspired discussion, eh. Here's to hoping that the fine spirit of intellectual discourse remains.
-Thomas Perkins
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 9, 2005 23:53:52 GMT -5
Thomas,
Thanks so much for your support and kind words about the forum. I think thats what makes LoG so unique is that we honor and encourage serious, but civil and adult fan discussion!
I second everything Reideen said above. No Ones opinion is invalid here. We'd love to hear from everyone, as long as you can express yourself like a mature individual and have discussion, not just give criticism.
Bring on the Batman talk!
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Aug 10, 2005 0:17:24 GMT -5
Thomas, Thanks so much for your support and kind words about the forum. I think thats what makes LoG so unique is that we honor and encourage serious, but civil and adult fan discussion! I second everything Reideen said above. No Ones opinion is invalid here. We'd love to hear from everyone, as long as you can express yourself like a mature individual and have discussion, not just give criticism. Bring on the Batman talk! I second (or would that be third?) this sentiment. And might I add that reading the thoughts of Mr. Perkins on this has been an added bonus, in the sense that if anyone would be apt to take personal or professional offense, it'd be the people working day in and day out to bring us this series! But because we've seen complaints handled in such a respectful manner, we've also been able to have a very respectful and inoffensive discussion. And what a discussion it's been...perhaps one of the best threads we've had here on Legions of Gotham, in my opinion. --Larry
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Post by arkhaminmate on Aug 10, 2005 11:09:36 GMT -5
I completely agree with Mater Of Fear. Batman Begins, is dark, mature & kick butt. I also for some reason get up very early Saturday mornings to watch The Batman. but it is nowhere near as complex as BTAS. Although the villians look amazing, they create no sympathy. Like Kirk Langstrom seemed evil before he was Man-Bat. & Mr. Freeze was a thief. Although the look of the show is amazing. It is a bit more for the kids.
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Post by MasterofFear on Aug 10, 2005 13:07:37 GMT -5
now where gettin back on topic thanks arkham inmate and to the rest still explaining the maturity needed to express your opinions i second (or third or fourth) all your statements
self reflecting is the only honest way to get to know your true intentions
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