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Post by All Star Batman on Dec 18, 2008 17:49:21 GMT -5
After watching the movie a couple more times, it made me think of things I missed when I watched it in theaters. For one thing, they didn't keep a straight body count did they? Joker killed alot more than 5 people, and as for Dent, technically he only killed 2: Wertz and Maroni's driver. 3 if you count Maroni getting killed in the crash. Also, the part with the ferries where each boat had a chance to blow the other one up. We've seen parts in the movie where Joker made people think the wrong thing. Like when he put the fake grenade in the bank manager's mouth, or how he switched the locations of Harvey and Rachel to Batman. I have a feeling that Joker actually gave each ship their own detenator. Because he's just that evil. One last thing, in the Gotham Tonight episodes, they said Crane was believed to be dead after the Narrows attack. It would've been believable seeing as how we never saw what happened to him at the end of Begins. This gets me thinking that maybe there's still a shot of Two-Face still being alive for another movie.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Dec 18, 2008 18:47:32 GMT -5
Joker most definitely killed more than five people. I would like to point out one mistake in what you say. Batman deliberately went to save Dent. He put the sake of the city before his own personal relationship with Rachel. Joker didn't pull one over on him in that regard. As far as the detonator goes, I think that each ship was rigged to blow both of them up. I think the Joker would find that rather funny. The grenade had gas in it, right? I've only gotten to watch the film twice, so I'm unsure about that scene.
Two Face is dead. I think we are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we are most likely not going to see Joker of Two Face in the sequel.
That is my two cents on the subject.
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Janus
Legions Of Gothamite
The Coin? I Let Him Keep It.
Posts: 46
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Post by Janus on Dec 18, 2008 21:57:33 GMT -5
Dark Nightwing,
Batman was going to save Rachel. Finding the wrong person was the joke. The Joker is evil.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Dec 19, 2008 2:14:12 GMT -5
Perhaps I was wrong, but I thought that Batman was able to put his personal life to try to save Gotham. The whole bit about which one he chose, seems to be more of a trick of the editing. If Batman were trying to save Rachel, then he was being selfish. Dent was Gotham's white knight. He was willing to sacrifice his entire image to save his reputation. Dent was the one that thought he made a mistake. I don't think Bruce ever said it. He didn't look surprised to see that he was saving Dent. Is there some point that it is said that he got the wrong one? Let me know.
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Post by MuksC on Dec 19, 2008 8:59:47 GMT -5
Two Face is dead, Nolan has said so in interviews recently.
and as Janus said, Batman intended to save Rachel, Joker simply switched the addresses when he told him.
@ Dark Nightwing, Batman clearly tells Gordon he's going after Rachel, so Gordon tells his men to go to the address they think Dent is at. if Batman intended to save Dent, then both he and Gordon would end up at the same location, which didn't happen. Gordon got to Rachel's location, Batman got to Dent's location. it's not complicated or some trickery of editing, Joker definitely did pull one over Batman.
and of course there is the possibility that each ferry had the detonator for itself, which is something the Joker would find amusing. or both detonators could have controlled both ferries' bombs, which would also have been amusing to him. we just don't know because it's deliberately left ambiguous.
as for the 5 people Batman says he will take responsibility for, he's only talking about the 5 Dent killed, nothing to do with the Joker's bodycount.
the 5 people could be the 2 cops at the hospital (there was supposed to be 1 guarding Dent, then another goes to find out why he's not answering his radio), Maroni and Maroni's driver, and probably Wuertz in the bar when the bartender goes to the toilet.
the gas in the grenade in the bank manager's mouth was likely just some non-harmful gas to knock him out, or even just a smoke grenade to do no damage at all.
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Post by All Star Batman on Dec 19, 2008 12:07:40 GMT -5
@dark Nightwing, you can tell Joker switched the locations by the dialogue in the movie. JOKER: He's at 250 52nd Street and she's at Avenue X. Later Dent has Ramirez at gunpoint when she tells Barbara to go to 250 52nd Street. And on the phone when Gordon's on the phone with Harvey and he asks where his family is, Harvey says "Where my family died." as for the 5 people Batman says he will take responsibility for, he's only talking about the 5 Dent killed, nothing to do with the Joker's bodycount. Yes, but by my count Dent only killed 2, 3 in the process of killing the second.
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Post by shadowseven on Dec 19, 2008 14:55:31 GMT -5
Yeah, the Joker definitely switched the locations because he knew Batman would be selfish and try to save Rachel, and would actually wind up saving Harvey. The Joker knew Harvey would in factbe saved and would go insane at losing Rachel, even more so because he would be listening to her at the very moment she died, something Dent alludes to when he has Gordon and his family at gunpoint. Even though The Joker asks Dent "Do I look like the kind of guy who has a plan?" he definitely does, at least when it comes to creating chaos in the larger sense for the city of Gotham. He knows if Dent sees that there is no real order or reason for anything, and that anything can be lost at any moment (despite all he's done to prevent it), then that would truly drive Dent mad. And if he does fall from grace and become "evil", then the people of Gotham will also believe that and the city would fall into utter chaos, leaving The Joker as the one true "Prince ofGOtham."
Anyway, it's nice to be here and I look forward to some great discussions!!
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Post by MuksC on Dec 19, 2008 19:33:05 GMT -5
as for the 5 people Batman says he will take responsibility for, he's only talking about the 5 Dent killed, nothing to do with the Joker's bodycount. Yes, but by my count Dent only killed 2, 3 in the process of killing the second. no one knows that it was Joker who killed the 2 cops in the hospital, so they are included in the 5 that Dent (allegedly) killed. he directly killed Wuertz and Maroni's driver, indirectly killed Maroni (we assume he's dead and won't re-appear in the next movie) and directly killed the 2 hospital cops. Joker set Dent free from the hospital, 2 cops didn't report back after the collapse of the hospital, so everyone would have the suspicion that Dent killed the cops in order to escape. although that would make Gordon's speech about "5 dead, 2 of them cops" innaccurate, because it would be 3 cops with Wuertz included.
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Post by yellowbat on Dec 20, 2008 4:47:07 GMT -5
I also think Two face is alive. That would be a lame death for a character who was so hard to knock off in the comics.
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Post by All Star Batman on Dec 20, 2008 22:56:01 GMT -5
I also think Two face is alive. That would be a lame death for a character who was so hard to knock off in the comics. Nolan said Two-Face did die, however, they didn't clearly say it in the film. So I'm just hoping that Nolan changes his mind and somehow brings him back. I'm also hoping he can think of a way that Robin could be introduced. But I'm getting off topic now.
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Janus
Legions Of Gothamite
The Coin? I Let Him Keep It.
Posts: 46
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Post by Janus on Dec 20, 2008 23:01:43 GMT -5
No one wants to see Two-Face in another movie more than me (just check out my avatar). But as Nolan presented Harvey's transformation, Two-Face is not a sustainable villian. I don't think this Two-Face could be the criminal mastermind that the BTAS Two-Face or other incarnations have been - Harvey had to die.
... Although a story about a failed rehabilitation, ala "Second Chance", would be incredible. I can't get enough of the seamless CGI.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Dec 21, 2008 1:28:15 GMT -5
I have to agree with Janus. I think that if they tried to bring Two Face back, it would be quite shaky trying to make a story around him, especially with his funeral. There is something that needs be observed in stories. When a character loses its usefulness to the story, they either leave the story or just kind of linger there. Two Face was needed to get Batman into a fugitive state. He has already had a funeral, which means he is probably dead. He looked pretty dead. Nolan said he is dead. I liked this version of Two Face, but I don't expect him to come back. If he were to come back, he would not have had a funeral. What would happen if he lives? He keeps trying to kill people? Does he start robbing people? This Two Face is not greedy. He doesn't have enough as he is to carry a movie.
I think we will be looking at Riddler as the next main villain will various other villains in more cameo appearances. The third one will establish a growing Rogues gallery. Riddler is one of the most difficult villains to write for, so I think that the Nolan brothers would be rather attracted to that. A lot of thought has to be put into this character. I think the way that Joker was portrayed more than shows how well they are at such things.
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Post by yellowbat on Dec 21, 2008 6:30:50 GMT -5
If they do bring in Robin (Which I very much against!!!!) He needs to be strong not some weak meaningless sidekick. I think Nolan could pull it off.
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Doomsday
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Y'wanna know how I got these scars?
Posts: 234
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 24, 2008 18:40:11 GMT -5
I dont see the point in bringing Two-Face back. He had a wonbderful character development, and we saw him become the corrupt man, and he died perfectly. I see no fit for him in another film. I've been trying to think of ways to squeeze him in without making him the main enemy, since that would be overkill for the character, and I cant think of any good storylines for Two-Face to be alive in.
One or two NEW villains would be nice. I'd perfer Two-Face dead, and the Joker locked up in Arkham.
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Post by svengali1337 on Dec 27, 2008 21:12:17 GMT -5
I also think Two face is alive. That would be a lame death for a character who was so hard to knock off in the comics. Nolan said Two-Face did die, however, they didn't clearly say it in the film. So I'm just hoping that Nolan changes his mind and somehow brings him back. I'm also hoping he can think of a way that Robin could be introduced. But I'm getting off topic now. False, in the script (that can be downloaded online) it says very clearly that he dies: Two-face falls, breaks neck, dies.
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Post by svengali1337 on Dec 27, 2008 21:27:22 GMT -5
I dont see the point in bringing Two-Face back. He had a wonbderful character development, and we saw him become the corrupt man, and he died perfectly. I see no fit for him in another film. I've been trying to think of ways to squeeze him in without making him the main enemy, since that would be overkill for the character, and I cant think of any good storylines for Two-Face to be alive in. One or two NEW villains would be nice. I'd perfer Two-Face dead, and the Joker locked up in Arkham. Whoa, i don't know about you but i thought that having two-face in for 10 minutes then dieing and never being seen again in the movie series was pointless. A main villain like two-face should have his own movie instead of being tied in with the joker plot. I didn't really like how they changed Two-faces creation, so to speak, from how it happens in comics. As for character development, Aaron Eckhart (Dent) acting was completely dull. His acting lacked any sort of emotion, it was almost robotic, not very believable. In conclusion, the movie was in no way close to perfect. Personally the only reason i liked the movie was because Ledger does a great great great joker, really spectacular, really close to how one would think joker really is. Other than that and the comish Gordan (for some reason i really like that actor as Jim, he does a good job) the movie wasn't that good. Batman was annoying with his stupid voice, and if you think about it he had like 1/4 the lines when he was playing Batman then any other main character. He put on muscle in Batman Begins and he actually looked like a Hero, but in this one he looks like nothing special. He didn't use any gadgets, but i guess people say he is evolving or something....
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Post by All Star Batman on Dec 27, 2008 21:41:42 GMT -5
Nolan said Two-Face did die, however, they didn't clearly say it in the film. So I'm just hoping that Nolan changes his mind and somehow brings him back. I'm also hoping he can think of a way that Robin could be introduced. But I'm getting off topic now. False, in the script (that can be downloaded online) it says very clearly that he dies: Two-face falls, breaks neck, dies. Yes, but it wasn't clearly said in the film.
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Doomsday
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Y'wanna know how I got these scars?
Posts: 234
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Post by Doomsday on Dec 28, 2008 10:59:20 GMT -5
I dont see the point in bringing Two-Face back. He had a wonbderful character development, and we saw him become the corrupt man, and he died perfectly. I see no fit for him in another film. I've been trying to think of ways to squeeze him in without making him the main enemy, since that would be overkill for the character, and I cant think of any good storylines for Two-Face to be alive in. One or two NEW villains would be nice. I'd perfer Two-Face dead, and the Joker locked up in Arkham. Whoa, i don't know about you but i thought that having two-face in for 10 minutes then dieing and never being seen again in the movie series was pointless. A main villain like two-face should have his own movie instead of being tied in with the joker plot. I didn't really like how they changed Two-faces creation, so to speak, from how it happens in comics. As for character development, Aaron Eckhart (Dent) acting was completely dull. His acting lacked any sort of emotion, it was almost robotic, not very believable. In conclusion, the movie was in no way close to perfect. Personally the only reason i liked the movie was because Ledger does a great great great joker, really spectacular, really close to how one would think joker really is. Other than that and the comish Gordan (for some reason i really like that actor as Jim, he does a good job) the movie wasn't that good. Batman was annoying with his stupid voice, and if you think about it he had like 1/4 the lines when he was playing Batman then any other main character. He put on muscle in Batman Begins and he actually looked like a Hero, but in this one he looks like nothing special. He didn't use any gadgets, but i guess people say he is evolving or something.... Ten minutes? You mean an hour! Yeah, Two-Face was in TDK for an hour. And I dont know how you found Eckhart to be dull. In fact, next to Heath Ledger, he was one of the best actors in the movie! Maybe the movie wasnt perfect, but it was still fabulous! and you must admit, there truly is NO spot for Two-Face in Batman 3.
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Post by MuksC on Jan 5, 2009 14:29:10 GMT -5
why do people keep wanting Two Face in another movie? the whole point of him is that he is a good man who turns bad, and as a gimmick he flips a coin for every decision he makes.
we saw that transformation in TDK, and he flipped his coin a few times, so what more could he do in another movie, but flip his coin yet more times to decide whether or not to kill? the CGI looked awesome, but apart from that, Two Face would bring nothing new or exciting to a further movie.
and please, no Robin!
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clownprince19
Gotham Tourist
DONT BE SO PREDICTABLE THIS IS HIS REAL FACE!
Posts: 14
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Post by clownprince19 on Jan 5, 2009 17:06:19 GMT -5
I'm with the people who prefer Two-Face as dead, at first I was gutted he was dead, but after watchin TDK more times I realised its best off that way. The third installment should be an entirely new story, the chronicle of The Joker and Harvey Dent is over for Batman. The police are chasing him, he's protecting Gotham again in his own way, right up until some other freak comes along. And if you believe Eckhart delivered a poor performance? Well hell, all I will say is I disagree there pal... IMO he was amazing, especially as Two-Face, both sides of him were portrayed perfectly, the final scene with him flipping the coin on Batman himself and the boy, it's god damn amazing! "You think I wanna escape from this! There is NO escape from this!" Just amazing. Anyway yeah, I think the Batman 3 needs to be an entirely new story, no links too Two-Face or The Joker apart from maybe how The Joker is holding out in Arkham you know like an update. Just to keep us wondering.
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Post by Dark Nightwing on Jan 6, 2009 2:50:19 GMT -5
why do people keep wanting Two Face in another movie? the whole point of him is that he is a good man who turns bad, and as a gimmick he flips a coin for every decision he makes. we saw that transformation in TDK, and he flipped his coin a few times, so what more could he do in another movie, but flip his coin yet more times to decide whether or not to kill? the CGI looked awesome, but apart from that, Two Face would bring nothing new or exciting to a further movie. I absolutely agree. After watching the movie a bunch more times, something stuck out to me. Two Face says that there is no escaping and that he doesn't want to do so. This is during the big showdown scene between him, Batman, and Gordon. When he falls, he is never shown to be breathing. He has a funeral. The book has said that he is dead. Nolan has said that he is dead. I don't understand why people want him to be in the sequel and why they think he survivedl.
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Post by jordanasmith on Jan 19, 2009 10:52:43 GMT -5
me too going to buy the DVD of the dark knight.....
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Post by havedunter74 on Jan 28, 2009 10:34:21 GMT -5
I think the whole point of the fil was what Harvey Dent said to Bruce in the restaurant about Dying a hero or living long enough to become the villain and thats what happened to Harvey.
Im sure the next film will go along the same lines with there being an underlying message about good and evil.
i would be happy with no super villain and having batman battling to take back the city and the truth coming out about harvey and batman becomes the hero etc etc..........
Maybe a story-line along the lines of dark victory, where Maroni's family vow to take revenge on Batman and Gotham for the death of one their siblings
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