Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Mar 8, 2005 21:22:27 GMT -5
Hey gang,
Sorry I haven't been around much lately. Been very busy. Finally decided to check things out today, and oh boy am I glad I did!
Reading all this new information, I can't help but feel the season finale is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of this series falling into its own, unique creative vision.
The first half of season one was, perhaps hampered (in the eyes of certain fans) based around preconceived notions of the animated Batman, expectations for who and what these characters are based around the classic series. I think the creative team struggled with this as well, not wanting to repeat what came before but also not wanting to stray too far from the mythology. I could see in the second half of the season, a growing confidence in the storytelling. I've felt this is because the villains used were all second-tier foes who hadn't gotten much exposure in the classic show -- there weren't many expectations for Firefly or Cluemaster, and this team did an excellent job on them. With the spoilers for Clayface, we know they have a great take on this character as well.
In season two, I can't help but feel we're all going to be blown away with this unique take on Batman. The creative team has devised all new takes on these characters that sound very exciting. From Killer Croc to Hugo Strange, I think using these more "obscure" characters and making them less so is going to work in this show's favor. Ragdoll, Spellbinder, Grundy...this show's had a horror influence from day one, and we're sure seeing that fleshed out with these villains.
The introduction of Gordon and Babs into the show is going to prove a great link to the classic mythology. As for Ivy, I'm excited by this new version of her. It's an interesting idea.
In all, I think it's a great time to be a Batman fan, and it's only going to get better.
--Larry
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 8, 2005 21:42:18 GMT -5
The season finale is written well, however I dont think the overall Season 2 will be done/written that well, not even half the eps of Season 2.
Im sure most of the eps of Season 2 will be done like Season 1, however there probaly will be at least 3 eps done as good as the Season 1 finale.
See the production staff was already well into working on Season 2 before getting such a positive response from the finale, so now they've had a chance to gauge that and are like "oh okay, people like these eps, so we should do more like those" Im hoping for the best though, Im thinking realisticly, but still hoping for the best.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Mar 8, 2005 23:32:21 GMT -5
I disagree with the idea that they've needed to gauge reaction to see what is working and what isn't -- many shows get off to a rocky start and show vast improvement through their first season, and it has nothing to do with public reaction -- a good deal of episodes are finished well before they air. See "Boston Legal" as an example of this -- the show made huge strides in balancing the humor and drama by the third or fourth episode.
I wasn't even suggesting "The Batman" has been bad to start with -- I love the series. What I was saying is that early episodes were dealing with establishing/finding the tone of the series while also providing their own versions of classic Batman foes -- Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Freeze...where the show gets more comfortable is when they are using characters the audience may not be all that familiar with, like Firefly, Cluemaster, Scarface, Clayface, etc. Season two looks to be populated with villains that this creative team can put their own "stamp" on, as it were. Coupled with more confidence -- after all these episodes, the creative team definitely knows what sorts of stories they want to tell -- and I think we can be looking forward to a fantastic second season.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 9, 2005 0:25:48 GMT -5
I think you're expecting the entire second season to be done as well as lets say the Catwoman ep or the season finale. Alot of the eps will play out just like Season 1, just various standard eps, nothing comparing to the catwoman ep or season finale, there might be a few eps in season 2 as good as those, but I can pretty much garuntee you not even half the eps of season 2 will be that.
Season 2 may be better then Season 1, but that dosnt mean its eps are going to have better writting, character development, etc, etc.
You're more or less just excited for Season 2, you dont know that infact it will be good.
I love the show too, but I know what it is and isnt capable of and what to expect in realistic terms, ie think about this, are the guys that wrote the best eps of Season 1 writting any eps for Season 2? Are any of the best directors from Season 1 directing eps for Season 2?
One of the major problems I see for The Batman overall is it dosnt seem very personalized or like the team knows where they're going with the series. It was fairly easy for Bruce Timm, Paul Dini, and Alan Burnett, to make their Batman cartoons cause the three of them were basicly doing it all themselves, so its sense of direction and personality. If you noticed, with The Batman, most all the eps are written and directed by diffrient people from ep to ep, which is bad since TV, Movies, and comics have shown us when they're done by a smaller more collective group or one person even a writter and director (or writter & artist) it works out for the better, rather then having various people come in and out all the time.
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Post by HUSH on Mar 9, 2005 1:28:44 GMT -5
Honestly, I think we're going to have a mixed bag of episodes next season, too, and throughout the whole series. The Batman's "rocky start" should have been for, like, the first 6 episodes or something, NOT 1+ seasons! I have been very supportive of this series in my posts, but I just want one thing: I want The Batman to be a solid series, with most if not all good episodes, not bad. A good episode in my book isn't corny at all(I don't think kids or Bat-fans like camp), each episode of which has a) a great plot, b) good writing, and c) good character development. I agree that this show has gotten off to a rough start, and I think the creative team can make it superb, possessing qualities a, b, and c, but it will require an end to the corniness, writing that is constant; the same quality in each episode, unlike season 1, where we have the superb Man-bat episode stacked up against the lame(IMO), petty-villain, pointless Cluemaster episode. Also, Bruce/Batman needs not do uncharacteristic things like listen to rock music while working in the Batcave, participating in an online dating service, and contemplating giving up the role of Batman. I really respect how far this show has come in terms of the story and the characters, but I don't want it to stop progressing and stay at this quality level; it needs to continue progressing throughout its entire run. As mentioned, the quality also needs to always be superb and creative, not back-and-forth, unique-plot-great-writing to trite-story-mediocre-writing. I just want this series to reach its full potential, not stay at this eratic quality level. I really do have high hopes for this series, I'm just becoming uncertain as to whether or not they'll be fullfilled.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 9, 2005 1:50:43 GMT -5
Great discussion guys. Constructive and adult. I'm diggin' it.
Season one was rocky for this show...I think by episode 9 they really found their stride, though. And guess what, that happens with most shows..it does take a season or so to get a good feel for things. They're creating an entire new universe for Batman..it takes awhile to see how these new characters flesh out...to see what role they take on. You have to sit back and let that happen to a certain extent.
Now clearly no, The Batman doesn't have the lofty direction that Timm had with BTAS. This show isn't about making a deep statement..its about having some fun with a character that takes itself too seriously sometimes. This show has an energy and a vibrancy that BTAS never did. Both are different...both are excellent.
I know that once something dies it becomes perfect, but there are quite a few BTAS episodes I don't like. Some I can't even stand to watch. It wasn't perfect people. It had its own issues..as EVERY toon does.
and please realize that while some fans like to blame the creative team for EVERYTHING..the network does have a hand in controlling and limiting some things, be it in writing or time constraint. They can't do everything they'd necessarily like to, or the way they'd like to do it.
Sources around the show have told me that season two/three looks WAY better and really hits a decent stride. The creative team isn't blind, they know about certain issues the fans have..and they work their best to correct them. As long as everyone stays open minded and tries to have a good time, all will turn out just fine.
There's a lot more drama..more character developement..more plot..a lot more things can be explored with more time. remember, they're not continuing something old, they're starting anew..and it takes awhile to flesh it all out.
again, great discussion gang. Thats why I love the bat-fans here. They're intelligent and adult enough to express their concerns without behaving like children or trading insults.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 9, 2005 9:38:51 GMT -5
Yeah, but see Ive seen stuff (shows, or whatever) fleshed out in pre-production, which is where they should be fleshed out, ie they shouldnt be figuring it out as they go along, thats a one way trip to cancelation. For instance lets look at another show similar to The Batman, X-Men: Evolution, it was done really in terms of story and character development even in Season 1. Few animated shows hit the mark right on their first try however there are examples that it can be done.
Well see here's the problem I have, yeah BTAS was more deep, lofty, whatever, but what is The Batman, ie its obvious what BTAS was, however its not so easy to see what The Batman is other then a reivention, like whats its sense of direction? Is it supposed to be flashy, action packed, story driven, etc? Whats the strive they're trying to hit with it? Reinventing isnt a strive, its a ploy, its marketing, however that dosnt mean the reinventions are bad or not hitting their mark or whatever, just look at Marvel's Ultimate comics or X-Men Evolution.
I hardly think BTAS or TNBA are perfect. For instance I cant really stand watchting BTAS because of its animation style, the thick curvy figures, compared to the sleeker, thinner, more straight edged look/designs for TNBA. BTAS also had quite a few boring eps most of which dont involve any of the villians (some of those eps are good but not most of em)
TNBA also had problems like it (like The Batman) was probaly doing too many random eps for its own good and didnt have the overall feel that BTAS had, and I also hated Nightwing's look, my fav bat character ended up looking like a Native American superhero, mostly thanks to that bird design on his chest, which I dont get since in terms of animation his comic emlem would be easier to draw.
The only thing Id call perfect about the Timm/Dini/Burnett series is the voice cast/work, where I do have one problem. How the producers decide as the bat cartoons progressed it be better for Bruce and Batman to have basicly the same voice. I liked it better when the voices were distinctly diffrient, most notably in the first ep of BTAS (On Leather Wings) where Batman is talking on the phone but as Bruce Wayne and the diffrience is so obvious. (The shows writting was pretty perfect too)
Also EVERY ep of The Batman is turning into a introduction/origin story, something thats hurting the series. Or lets look at it this way. Okay they're introducing alot of characters, yet the geniuses over at Mattel making the figures are basicly doing 5 per line figures 4 of which are bat variants while the 5th (usualy being the hardest to find) is a villian, well gues what, thats idiotic, it should be only 3 bat variants per line (if even that) while the other 2 characters are villians, or maybe one villian and one supporting character, like anyone of the cops, or Alfred, or whoever. Look how many figures Kenner/Hasbro was able to do with Star Wars, TONS, and there werent a bunch of crappy variants. Yeah Im sure the bat variants are what sell the highest to their target demographic of little kids, but how bout they for once try releasing accessory packs with the various crap accessories they stick with a batman figure variant whose just a slight resculpt or repaint or whatever, and just make one defenitive Batman figure that stays on shelves all through the line. Its like not only does the show not have good direction but the toyline is even worse (not in quality, just direction)
Im well aware of what the network is capable of doing with shows, however if The Batman in constantly getting notes from the network or whatever, then they're (the creative team) are not being smart about it, and Im seeing that basicly EVERY problem show has stems from one place, its being done episode by ep, ie one ep is done/planned, then another, then another. TERRIBLE idea/process. Plan the WHOLE season from the start, dont do it ep by ep, ie as you're going along. Find out what the network has problems with it should be easy to figure out after a few notes on eps, and you might wanna make some calls around to other creative teams who's cartoons are on the network and ask what kinda notes they get too. Then once you've got all that together plan out the series, tell all the writters "okay dont attempt to do this, this or this, or if you're going to do this, do it like this" and so on and so fourth.
See thats being smart about it or playing it right. That gets rid of all the problems (well the ones you listed, network notes, time contraints, etc)
Matt you have connections to the show, these are the kinds of things you should be telling them, I know you may not want to hurt your connections to show or whatever, but it be for the best. God Id love to just sit down with the creative team of The Batman or Mattel's team that works on the toys, and just drive alota ideas into their heads (its easy for me to spit out ideas/suggestions like the above)
Season 3 is where Im expecting it to hit its peak. From what Ive heard of Season 2 they're still finding themselves similar to Season 1.
Another thing thats messing them up though is holding off on introducing certain major villians, ie Im sure they got it all planned out and figure, oh well we gotta save certain villians for Seasons 2, 3, & 4. Well thats nice and probaly seems like a good strategy but what happens when your show gets canceled casue you idioticaly held off introducing characters at the right time, early on when you should have introduced them earlier on that way you can come back and "play" with them whenever you want.
Like I said before, you can flesh out something and get it right before it ever hits the air.
Now I hate to keep going back to BTAS, but I am again. Although let me explain this, when I compare this show to BTAS/TNBA its NOT cause they were both Batman shows, its because BTAS was one of the best cartoons ever done, and that has nothing to do with Batman, it was the creative process, the vision, the set up, etc.
Alright now with that said let me say this. If you look at the diffrient series Timm, Dini, & Burnett do the pre-production process they do is crazy, just look at the BTAS Writter's Bible. I was looking through that thing and couldnt believe how indepth it was or that a cartoon would have something like that, but it did, and it was obviously the right thing, because whatever the process they used was the right one as in spawned one of the best animated shows of all times as well as slews of what you could call spin offs (Superman, Batman Beyond, Justice League, JLU)
Also remember all cartoons start anew, the Timm/Dini/Burnett stuff, X-Men Evolution, Jackie Chan Adventures, etc, and still do it right or hit the mark at the beggining.
Which reminds me. The Batman and Jackie Chan Adventures seem so alike (maybe its just because Jeff is the character designer for both shows) but yet JCA was done well from the start (although now Im wondering where's The Batman/Jacke Chan Adventures crossover, I KNOW the creative team has thought about it, even if not seriously, the network has, so dont be suprised if you see that)
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Schemes
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 190
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Post by Schemes on Mar 9, 2005 9:40:46 GMT -5
Feeling a little melancholy on this one...I'm just remembering how excited I was was The batman was first announced, I checked in almost everyday for new news, and sometimes scanned TV for the previews. And then, it hit, and I must say, the season opener was a little rocky for me, but then as the episodes went on, I knew I would stay attached anyway, and so I did, and they just got better. Episodes like the season finale and such were table turners, and I would expect nothing less for season two.
They have SO MANY possibilities for season two like Barbara, Comish, Ivy, new villains (most of which are uncommon which is a good thing). Batgirl's appearance, I can't even fathom the character development. I'm sure after the episodes just got better in season one, the team wouldn't start low again and work their way up, they'll continue with greatness, probably at a steady level, unless they have episodes that BEAT season one's, which is sure to happen in at least the end or so of season two. As fans, I think it's just our job to sit back, and see what happens, then review, and give some constructive ideas or simply applause for a hard working team that has opened up a whole new, exciting, and awesome animated word for The Batman.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 9, 2005 9:46:34 GMT -5
A well thought out reply TAS.
Although we disagree on some points, I also agree with you on many things.
I think the most important thing for me to touch on is the direction of the show. What its mission and goal really is.
The problem with The Batman isn't necessarily the Batman..its BTAS. Fans cannot and will not, be it conscious or not, forget what BTAS did in terms of groundwork. The Batman is an action packed fun show, intended for a younger modern audience. Its a way to bring Batman to todays youth. Its not meant to be deep or brooding. Its taking elements from pre-crisis era Batman, and modernizing them. It lives under a steep shadow with BTAS/TNBA..one it may never end up growing out of to some fans.
Not every team is given the liberties that Timm's crew had. Its sad but true.
I'd like to have this convo more in depth when season two is in our midst. I think a lot of the issues you have now may be gone at that point. Keep in mind that season two is season three also. Season 2 only had 13 eps originally...they pushed the two together...so things will progress nicely.
Oh and don't worry, what you post here IS seen by the creative team. So post your suggestions and ideas, but remember to be respectful and do try to find nice things to say as well. Sometimes as fans we forget to talk about the positive and only focus on what bothers us.
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Schemes
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 190
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Post by Schemes on Mar 9, 2005 9:47:42 GMT -5
Also EVERY ep of The Batman is turning into a introduction/origin story, something thats hurting the series. You do make some good arguments, but I must say, I disagree with this. I believe that the younger audience likes the origins of characters, if they have never seen Batman before, and I myself also liked some of the origins, minus Mr.Freeze's incorrect one. But look at Catwoman's, no origin there, she just popped in, and Penguin, there was a litle background, but not so much in engulfed the episode. And now, for season two, they won't need origins as much, because a lot of season one villains will be returning, and by season 3, it will all be cleared. Plus, I'm thinking season two will be more of a character development/intro season, with less emphasis on the villains, but that's just my view.
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Post by azrael24 on Mar 9, 2005 10:35:54 GMT -5
whoa, thats a lot of writting, i'll post my opinions after im done reading
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 9, 2005 11:01:02 GMT -5
See thats the thing though, its not even hitting that mark. That might be its direction, but it hasnt hit that, or at least it didnt hit that in Season 1.
Jackie Chan Adventures is an action packed fun show. It basicly keeps moving at a fast pace and the action scenes come frequent.
The Batman shows are following a pattern/formula that I hope they get out of.
- Batman hears about a new villian/crime wave - Meets the villian, and gets beaten - Does some research figures everything out - Comes back and beats the villian
I guess you could say thats "Thee" Batman forumla, and its always used when it comes to Batman, but it stands out a little more to me with this show.
Now lets talk about action it seems to vary, and I notice you see very little hand to hand combat when it comes to the action, ie very few times to do you see somone actually get nailed with a punch or kick. Now this may have to do with the way the eps are censored. Kids of course love the action stuff, thats all they're intrested in, but there needs to be alot more of it if they want this to be action oriented. Im not saying make it full blown action oriented, but make the action scenes that are there REALLY spectacular, to the calibur of big live action movies or animes.
Which brings me to another question which Id love to have answered. Why do American cartoons ALWAYS have to look SO bland? I know that 90% of all American cartoons are animated over in Korea for the cheapest price, but how come American cartoons can never look anywhere near as good as Japanese ones? I seriously doubt that the cost of producing animation between Korean and Japanese studios is much diffrient, yet the quality between the two is quite diffrient. For instance how come all American cartoons only have one layer of shading when it comes to objects and characters while Japanese ones use multiple layers of shading. These superhero cartoons are based on superhero comics, yet they never look as good or as detailed as the comics, and Id love to just see one American cartoon come out that has the production values of the standard/average Japanese cartoon, but I dont know if thats ever going to happen even though there are dozens of American cartoons out there now inspired by anime.
Oh that reminds me speaking of action, I know I already mentioned how well JCA does action, but look how Samurai Jack, Star Wars Clone Wars, and Teen Titans do action. All the action scenes I saw in the SW cartoon were pretty amazing, and every time Robin and Slade fight in TT its always this great hand to hand fight that they dish out on one another. Hell even Family Guy has better fight scenes then The Batman, which is something thats always bewildered me, ie if you've ever seen one of the few fight scenes Family Guy has done, they're corigraphed insanely well, which just blows my mind since its an animated sitcom.
Yeah but remember thats not the only good cartoon out there. I mentioned how well JCA and X-Men: Evolution did/are and they both are (or were) on the same network.
Also Timm & Dini didnt have alot of liberties. Dini wrote quite a few plots/scripts that never turned into eps, that he wanted to do for BTAS and TNBA (and if we're lucky will get to finally see those eps be made when TNBA dvds come out) notably Nocturna (the vampire chick) which is ironic, cause the first The Batman movie coming out has a vampire in it (Dracula) but thats obviously cause they wanted to put him in an ep of the series but couldnt because of the network, so he's in a DTV movie.
Maybe, and I hope so.
Thats cool, so theres what like 22 or 23 eps now in Season 2/3? Cartoons generaly have 12/13 ep seasons so if two are pushed together or the network ordered more eps, it should be twice that.
Reminds me of what happend with Smallville. Only 12 ordered at first, by the WB for the first season, then the first eps got amazing ratings, so they ordered 12 more eps, which made the 1st Season like 22 eps, something very rare for a first season of a show (since first seasons generaly are only 12 eps long)
Yeah but I actually wanna sit down with them, write, design, and choreograph stuff for/with them. I could choreograph some pretty amazing stuff for them.
No, thats not what Im saying.
See its like every ep is becoming a origin/introduction ep, and they're not giving themselves a chance to bring back and play with previous villians, example look at all the obscure villians they're introducing in Season 2, when they should be introducing some more of the bigger ones and play around with them and the Season 1 villians before ever introducing characters obscure as Hugo Strange, Solomon Grundy, Spellbinder, etc.
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Drizzt2218
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 165
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Post by Drizzt2218 on Mar 9, 2005 13:37:38 GMT -5
This is a great discussion. I've had fun reading all these different posts -- I'm always glad when something I post leads to more discussion. Thanks for responding, guys!
I tend to agree with Matt about this series more than anyone else. If this show came out, and there were no B:TAS before this, I think we wouldn't see nearly as much complaining. People came in expecting B:TAS, what they got was something more in line with the '70s era of Batman -- not campy, not all that dark, either. As a fan of *all* eras of the Dark Knight, I can see where this show is most influenced, and I think it's a good choice. I wouldn't want a campy series, nor would any fan, I'd imagine. But we don't need another completely grim version of Batman -- my biggest problem with "The New Batman Adventures" was just how dark and Miller-ish Batman had gotten.
Another area this show shines is by focusing on Bruce Wayne as a character -- I love this version of Bruce, and the strides they've taken in making this *his* story -- Bruce isn't just a mask Batman wears, and at this point he's still trying to figure out just who he wants to be.
I think it's wrong to say this show doesn't have a direction of its own -- it may not be a lofty, definitive take like B:TAS, but it *is* a worthy addition to the legacy of Batman. This is a lighter Batman, both as a character and a series. It's supposed to be fun, and we're supposed to have fun with it. Does that make it perfect? No. Is it getting better as it progresses? I think so.
--Larry
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 9, 2005 14:07:19 GMT -5
Yeah but do you even think this show would exist if BTAS had never existed? Thats something to think about.
Thats not what Im saying. Its the episode strategy or whatever direction.
See thats not a direction though.
The Batman is a reinvention/revision/update to Batman. Thats is defintion.
If the series had direction, you'd know where its going, what to expect next, etc, however that aspect isnt in place here. Example, the show Smallville has a various obvious direction, it has actual story arcs, tons of character development/interaction and whatever.
See now thats something Id like to see a superhero cartoon do, an actual story arc, a feel of continuation from ep to ep with the characters. For instance they could do an adaption of the famous "Hush" story arc, well as soon as they introduce Ras A Ghul that is. I even know a way to combine the Knightfall & Hush storyline to create an all new storyline/arc for The Batman. Basicly superhero cartoons could learn a thing or two from Soap Operas/Teen Dramas, or comic books even. Isnt that sad, that these shows are based on comics yet they've never done one like a comic?
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Post by azrael24 on Mar 9, 2005 17:57:30 GMT -5
ok, done reading! finally, it took me soo long.but n/e/wayz
i think that the problem w/ The Batman isnt a problem, its us. i mean, we have to remember that this IS a KIDS SHOW, it cant be bloody and action packed and violent, it has to have a limit because it IS a kids show. thats what the producers are aiming for, little kids. and they love it, im young and i have little brothers and they love the batman, they dont care about the stories. what we want really doesnt matter (well it does but u know...) what matters is that the little kids love it and they really do.
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Post by HUSH on Mar 9, 2005 18:04:24 GMT -5
Its not meant to be deep or brooding. And therein lies a problem with the show. Batman is by nature dark and brooding. Any Batman that is not dark and brooding is not really Batman, IMO. I know that this show is based more on pre-crisis lore, but we're not in the pre-crisis times, we're in post-crisis times. The way I see it, there's a reason the crisis happened. The way things were worked back then, but Batman is dark now. It is good to do a unique take on Batman, but like I said, I think today's fans are into a bad@$$, dark, brooding Batman, and I think the modern Batman is the one future fans should be exposed to. I don't think pre-crisis Bats is coming back any time soon(at least I hope not), so why introduce new fans to a version of Batman that they'll never see in comics or other media besides this show? Anyway, about the finding of The Batman's voice: I absolutely agree with TAS that all shows should know where they are going before they start, not be done ep by ep. I know I wouldn't make a show if I didn't basically know the whole story (for each season) before I started to write. One more thing: I really think this show could be a lot darker, and still be a kids' show. Everyone seems to underestimate the kind of plots kids can handle, IMO. When I was 5 or 6 and started watching B:TAS, I didn't have any problem comprehending the dark plots, and I certainly wasn't warped by the dark gritty series. I know alot of this is out of the creative team's hands, it just annoys me that the network doesn't think kids can even handle seeing realistic guns, or handle a lonely, obsessed, intense man. All the kids in '93 handled that kind of stuff and more. I, too, hate comaring The Batman to B:TAS, but I've realized that to make someting great, sometimes you have to compare it to examples set by great things that came before it. The last thing I want is for The Batman to be a facsimile of B:TAS, but it can be just as deep, just as superb if everyone involved learns a few things from B:TAS' example.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 9, 2005 22:16:05 GMT -5
Well guess what...
Batman The Animated Series The New Batman Adventures Batman Beyond Justice League Justice League Unlimited Teen Titans Jackie Chan Adventures X-Men: Evolution
are ALL KIDS SHOWS, yet they are/were done leaps and bounds better then The Batman.
Jackie Chan Adventures is the most kiddie of them all, and its still done great. It dosnt have "great" writting like lets say the Dini shows might, but its comedy and action are what make it great or its strong points, plus the seasons have story arcs and the show feels like it has an overall story.
And if you're good enough and know what you're doing you can make animation thats appealing to kids AND adults, just look at all those shows I listed above, or anime, or the animated Batman movies, or Shrek even.
Also if they manage to make it more appealing to adults while still making appealing to kids as well, they'll bring in more viewers, which means more revenue for the network and the show, a longer run of the series, and just better everything really.
What about Jackie Chan Adventures? Its a kids show, but action packed as hell, and between the action there's story and comedy. Basicly that show found its niche and the producers knew how to expoit the show to the best of its ability, something The Batman hasnt achieved, yet.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 9, 2005 23:43:13 GMT -5
there's absolutely nothing wrong with jackie chan adv TAS..but what you're forgetting is that Batman has a rich history and a picky fanbase looming over it. You don't have expectations on a jackie chan cartoon...its all shooting from their hip, and thats fine. Jackie chan doesn't have decades of other animation to compare to like The Batman. Its very different. If it were called something other than the Batman, you might enjoy it more. but give it time let the second season air..see what you think then. I think *most* of us will be happy with it.
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Mar 10, 2005 0:52:32 GMT -5
At the moment, I'm not a HUGE fan of the show, largely because I've yet to see something really blow me away. I'm with you on the formula thing, TAS, it does get repetetive after a while. However, as a kid's show, it's still fun. The three things that I feel would make this show better are:
1- Snappier Dialogue First off, Batman is not supposed to be Spider-Man-esque with puns, jokes and comebacks. However, some of the jokes fall VERY flat, and interrupt the story. Still, this isn't as big of a problem as
2- CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT The Batman and Alfred have had their character driven moments, particularly in the Clayface story, but we want more! I wish this version could be a bit less of a stereotype and more of a human being... some more edge, a bit more brooding. The Joker could be a bit more twisted, and a lot more obsessive, etc. However, I'm thinking this will improve with the Batgirl/Poison Ivy story.
3- The Comics The Batman Adventures, Batman & Robin Adventures, Batman: Gotham Adventures and Batman Adventures (II) produced some of the most wonderful Batman comics ever. Mad Love, the Holiday Special, B&RA Annual #1, B:GA #51, Batgirl Adventures #1, Harley and Ivy #1-3 and pretty much the entire BA II run were fantastic books that took characters new places, some of which were even made into TV episodes! The Batman Strikes is hampered by a lot of things, mostly its inability to really grow past the show. The characters have yet to do anything really character driven IMO, so the book doesn't make as much of a splash as it should. Also, lines like (paraphrased) "The guy who Punk'd the Batman" made me want to cringe (if it seems dated now, in 10 years...) However, the Catwoman issue was a drastic improvement, but I want more thrill! More major action! More development!
Now I feel bad...so I'll point out the three things I think the show has done best.
1- Voice Acting Emmy nomination- awesome!
2- Character Designs Very cool, stylized looks all around (although I'm not a fan of Catwoman's ears...), they've brought a very cool new century look to the characters.
3- Stunning Animation The biggest improvement over BTAS/TNBA, the animation is superb, as is the artwork in the comic series. Bravo!
Well, that's my two cents on the show...I still can't wait to see Poison Ivy : )
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 10, 2005 1:10:13 GMT -5
Any adaption is going to have problems with fans, but it being a reivented show is NOT the problem here. Its a problem that people have, but its not the shows most major problem, ie its overall direction (which has nothing to do with its reivention) hasnt found itself yet or least didnt in Season 1.
It being Batman has nothing to do with its problems. All of those shows I listed above found how to hit their mark, and it had nothing to do with the basis of the shows, it had to do with the people involved knowing how to do the best cartoon(s) possible, ie you can make any cartoon good, no matter what the subject as long as you have a good team, sense of direction, etc.
And yeah, all this Im saying about The Batman is about Season 1, but thats all I have to go on so far.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 10, 2005 1:27:23 GMT -5
Very true TAS...but we're having this discussion LONG after these shows have gone far beyond 13 episodes. I'm not arguing that the Batman has had a rough time getting going..I will agree with you on that...and I don't think the team there is blind to that fact.
The entire first season came together and was done before any fan reaction was even guaged..and do believe that they do care what the fans think..very much so actually.
I'm excited by what I know about season two..I'm very happy that they have so many new episodes on the way. This really gives them a chance to hit that stride.
I'm very confident that this show will grow into its skin this year. I have a lot of faith in EVERYONE involved.
I know you mentioned JL in a previous post here...and I wanted to interject that I feel they've really 'dumbed down' JL with JLU. Its new format is terribly uninteresting to me as a fan. The great character development is gone, IMO. it feels very rushed and high impact.
The batman is geared for a yu gi oh generation. kids today aren't the kids of btas tnba or even beyond. They're all new. and honestly all the kids I know, including my own son and a lot of nieces and nephews and their classmates, love the show. They don't know much of batman and this show keeps their attention span (short as that may be) and now they ask me all about batman and want to know more about him. To me, if this show hooks a new generation on batman..really gets their attention, then fantastic! Every generation needs their batman. My son loves The Batman..yawns during BTAS.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 10, 2005 1:29:10 GMT -5
3- The Comics The Batman Adventures, Batman & Robin Adventures, Batman: Gotham Adventures and Batman Adventures (II) produced some of the most wonderful Batman comics ever. Mad Love, the Holiday Special, B&RA Annual #1, B:GA #51, Batgirl Adventures #1, Harley and Ivy #1-3 and pretty much the entire BA II run were fantastic books that took characters new places, some of which were even made into TV episodes! The Batman Strikes is hampered by a lot of things, mostly its inability to really grow past the show. The characters have yet to do anything really character driven IMO, so the book doesn't make as much of a splash as it should. Also, lines like (paraphrased) "The guy who Punk'd the Batman" made me want to cringe (if it seems dated now, in 10 years...) However, the Catwoman issue was a drastic improvement, but I want more thrill! More major action! More development!
Well, that's my two cents on the show...I still can't wait to see Poison Ivy : )I don't know if you haven't seen but on our forum and in recent live chats, Chris Jones and Bill Matheny have discussed their interest in growing more beyond the show and expanding the universe. DC and WB dictate to a certain extent what they need to do at times...and as soon as they have free time, they're taking more liberties. That is their full intention.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 10, 2005 3:04:10 GMT -5
Well see the way it is, is that those shows with their first 12/13 eps did great, ie hit the mark from the start, knew what they wanted where it was going, etc, etc. While The Batman Season 1 is like a lost little boy trying to find his way, I do hope they find how to do it with Season 2, but it was quite obvious that they hadnt nailed in with Season 1, note how everyone mentions how good the finale is compared to the rest of the eps and wish more eps were done like that.
Yeah, I know cartoon seasons are finished before they ever hit air, but you can still figure out what works and what dosnt before even starting the show. For instance, you gotta say we're making this show for the Kids WB cartoon mornings. Alright so what do these kids like, lets look at some other shows and see what works well and what dosnt, ie what did people/kids like and not like about JCA, X-Men Evolution, or any of the other super hero cartoons (Batman, Spider-Man, etc) Then once you have all that, figure out if you can possibly make it entertaining to adults as well, while keeping all that kid research you just figured out in tact.
See, thats how part of the pre-production for a show like this should be done, ie its obvious they didnt try to research anything like that and they and/or the network) more or less figured out on their own what they thought people/kids would wanna see.
I know how to work it lol.
The transition from JL is easy to figure out, and Im pretty sure I can nail specifics that you dont like about it without you having to tell me, so lets start.
JL started out as a very small team focused show, always doing these 2 to 3 episode arcs. These tasks/goals/whatever the JL had to accomplish were on a massive level, ie the stuff Batman and Superman were dealing with in their own series was chump change compared to this stuff, and it all worked out real well.
So what went wrong? Why make JLU when JL was so perfect? It all has to do with the ratings. See whenever these superhero cartoons have guest stars good or bad (good usualy ends up working better for the ratings though) the ratings shoot way up, so how do you work to this? You make a show entirely devoted to the guest stars, and thats what JLU. They creative team basicly relized they should just do a show were they have the entire DCU at their disposal, that way they can have guest stars like crazy, and people tune in wondering who will be appearing each episode, although the idioticaly do a specific intro for each ep using clips from that ep ruining alot of it in the process. The show however becuase of all this character chaos has no sense of continuation its just mass hectic characters everywhere, like battle of the network all stars type thing only confined to a single show. It also really helps the toy line too cause it gives them tons of figures to make instead of variants (which still keep coming though in mass produced comic cartoon toylines)
Dini & Timm didnt discover this guest star formula with JL/JLU though. It was their Superman series that started it. A series that never found its way (didnt have much direction, character development, etc) but had guest stars like crazy and quite few great/obscure eps because of that. Like the Lobo eps or the Dr.Fate eps. For instance not alot of people know it, but when Lobo first appeared on Superman the ratings skyrocketed and shot so high the network even considered giving Lobo his own show, and thats where Dini/Timm and the network learned about the whole guest star thing with these cartoons.
See thats another thing though, its geared towards "those kids" but still isnt even done right or the best way possible for those kids. The Batman is hardly action packed and has alotta down time given its formula. If they want to hit those kids better with the show then its gotta be more like JCA. That show right there is what I think is the emodiment of how to do a Kids WB cartoon for "those kids" cause its just crazy off the wall action, with bright colors, and alot of comedy too, and since the shows do these story/seasonal arcs it keeps the kids intrested (or anyone really) in wanting to see the other/next episodes.
Also I want to show you something else. Tell me who your favorite Batman villian is, or a batvillian you want to see appear on the show that hasnt yet.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 10, 2005 3:06:37 GMT -5
Any adaption is going to have problems with fans, but it being a reivented show is NOT the problem here. Its a problem that people have, but its not the shows most major problem, ie its overall direction (which has nothing to do with its reivention) hasnt found itself yet or least didnt in Season 1. It being Batman has nothing to do with its problems. All of those shows I listed above found how to hit their mark, and it had nothing to do with the basis of the shows, it had to do with the people involved knowing how to do the best cartoon(s) possible, ie you can make any cartoon good, no matter what the subject as long as you have a good team, sense of direction, etc. And yeah, all this Im saying about The Batman is about Season 1, but thats all I have to go on so far. Firstly TAS, let me make clear that i DO agree I'd like to see some better dialogue and more intimate plot points in The Batman. I agree with everyone on that. that being said...let me pose this to you..why don't all the JL fans sit around and complain about how campy and poorly done Superfriends was? It was fitting for the era in which it was aired and for its target audience. Compare The Batman and its dialogue to yu-go oh and some of the other poorly translated, poorly acted toons on the air right now, and it excels far beyond them lol. Jackie chan, while it began well, has gone down the tubes in recent years. I don't think its fair to say the Batman has no direction. it may not be evident to you per say...but that doesn't mean its not there. We're talking about 13 eps into a series...only 11 of which most fans have actually seen......not only that, but they're trying to re-envision the entire universe and at the same time find their own voice apart from BTAS. Thats going to take some time and long term planning. A lot of fans complain that the plots are too small and not long spanning and in depth..and yet the same fan will complain that firefly or freeze didn't have a full origin story in their very first episodes! YOu can introduce a character and leave them mysterious until a later time....you know how many years it took for the comics to tell the origins of Joker?! A lot of long term plot planning is happening, but for that to come to pass you have to be patient and let the universe unravel. They don't want to shove every important plot point in your face in a half hour. Give them time to expand.
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Post by /\/\att on Mar 10, 2005 3:21:08 GMT -5
TAS - my fav villian not on the show is two face.
and regarding JCA...that show was ok and all, but its novelty ran out quickly for me. It had absolutely no worthwhile plot points...at ALL. It was 'lets chase talosmans and kick ninjas' every singe ep. Which was fine, don't get me wrong..I loved the show..but I want more from Batman. I think they do a good job of balancing action and a bit of plot. Something JCA didn't do well IMO. Especially not towards the end...and ratings have reflected as such. The formula there didn't work forever.
The Batman is setting up a lot of tie ins and future plots..laying groundwork with the intention of running a LOT of episodes. When I watch the first several eps of a toon I don't say to myself...gee I really get the entire direction of this series...that takes time..any good universe takes some time to lay out.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 10, 2005 5:12:58 GMT -5
Yeah and all those Hanna Barbera shows were basicly done the same, same forumla, style, etc, and its very obvious now, and nobody really cares too much cause they're old, but now we've seen cartoons in the recent years done very well, so now everyone (like over 12) wants all cartoons to be done that good. For instance people want this show to be just like BTAS while others (like myself) just want it to have the production values of BTAS, ie big budgets, good writters, character development, etc, etc.
You know alot of people say they want this show to be like this, this, and this, but I want you (and everyone) to think about this? In all the various adaptions of Batman (including all the movies, animation, tv shows, etc, everything except the comics basicly) what was the crowning achievement, what one single thing of all those did Batman the best and presented something truly amazing? Its not BTAS. That show of course had its flaws, just like The Batman, or the Adam West show, or the live action movies. But you wanna know what did Batman right or the best in terms of an adaption? It was Mask Of The Phantasm. A movie that goes leaps and bounds past the live action ones and leaves BTAS in the dust. That movie was the only time (prior to that point) where we saw the character like that (the comics never even dweled in his personal life the way that movie did) The way that whole movie was set up/played out in terms of story telling, character development, action, and everything else was just amazing, and lets not forget it was an original story too. That movie was basicly the defenitive Batman, and its not even just Batman, I dont think any American cartoon has ever come close to doing something like that.
Speaking of which, The Phantasm is a character I want to see in The Batman, I've been developing some concepts for a The Batman version of Phantasm (which has been a real pain cause it took awhile to get a real cool creepy reivented look for the character) but I've finaly got it done the way I wanted, and a great way to introduce the character too. The one villian nobody probaly ever thought of reiventing for this show.
Animes always have bad script translations, specialy the over Americanized ones like the Dragonball cartoons, Sailor Moon, Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, etc, etc. Although there are a few of the higher budget anime films that have good dubs and translations. Like X, Vampire Hunter D: Bloodlust, The End of Evangelion, and the AKIRA re-release to name a few. Basicly you just have to find people who care about making it or whatever the best it can be.
Maybe its that it has no obvious direction like other cartoons, ie other cartoons have story arcs, or might be done like a Soap Opera/Teen Drama, or whatever, but its obvious which isnt the case with this show.
Oh I dont care about the origin stuff, you're right that they dont have to have their origins in their introductions, but if you're not going to a character's origin you better damn well make their first appearence intresting as hell and spectacular, that way people will forget about the fact that you arent doing their origin, ie you gotta distract them from it, but you gotta have good writting/writers to do that. I mean Timm and Dini never wrote the origins for all the chars first appearences hell is was about half and half. Half the chars they would do origins for up front, the other half they wouldnt, like thier first ep with Joker "Christmas With The Joker" didnt have anything to do with his origins, but it had alot to it and never made you think "where's his origin?" Of course they did end up doing 2 diffrient origins for him. The Jack Napier one where it showed him as a failed comedian in one ep then a diffrient story with Mask Of The Phantasm (he was pretty creepy pre-Joker in MOTP, although so diffrient, ie how'd he go from that to Joker?)
Yeah I know, it drove itself into the ground, because it kept reusing the same forumla for every season, ie they're always searching for something.
Its not a good show for plot since there basicly was none it was just a good show geared towards kids, or rather they knew how to do it right in the beggining.
But see maybe The Batman should at least try a story arc for at least one season and see how it works out. Look how well the Batman Hush story worked out in the comics, and it lasted an entire year, and you got to see most all the major villians of Batman's Rogue's Gallery (I think Penguin was the only major one they/Loeb didnt touch on)
Or how bout Jeph Loeb write an ep. The first ep he wrote for Smallville turned out well. Plus he writes (both) Batman (& Superman) really well.
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TAS
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 75
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Post by TAS on Mar 10, 2005 5:13:30 GMT -5
Okay Two-Face.
Let's see he's gotta a dual personality disorder. Two minds about everything. An obsession with that coin, and perfered weapon of choice is a gun.
Now here's a character you're basicly forced to do an origin story with. So what is his origin or most used origin? Acid on the face. Thats weak, and never made any sense to me, ie I like how the burn spread evenly all the way around half his head, and if the whole side of his head was burned how does he still have hair on that side? Now how did Dini do it? Replaced the acid with an explosion, not much better, just a substitute. Okay so in both those the split face was unintentional, now what if we go in the complete opposite direction and make it intentional? Like he surgicaly alters half his face on purpose because that side of him dosnt like how he looks or whatever, and it goes wrong making that side ugly. Or forget that, and when "Bad Harvey" breaks out he wears a mask, a really ugly mask or just a mask that looks like a diffrient face, and through some means half the mask is burned into one side of his face. Well thats all I can come up for him in terms of an origin in terms of appearence off the top of my head.
Now how bout a scene? Will use that famous Giant Penny from the Batcave (in the comics) since its a coin and a famous bat-icon.
The Penny is being shown off somewhere, and Two-Face with this men try and steal it. Its on the top floor of the building its in and close the window so people can see it from outside. The Batman shows up to stop them and a fight breaks out. The henchmen manage to nab Bats and pin him up against the penny as Two Face walks over and points his gun at Batman, but Batman leans back and kicks Two Face in the stomach with both feet and throws Two Face upward into the penny. Now with all the weight being leaned against the penny. It tips and falls out the window onto a steep street below with Batman, Two Face, and the Henchmen all on it. The penny begins sliding down the street while rotating 360 degrees continously. Now anytime Batman tries and uses a weapon/gadget or Two Face fires a bullet they always miss their target, and Batman cant do any jumps while on the Penny or he'll fly off, so he has to deal with these thugs and Two Face by running back and fourth and dealing with them with hand to hand combat (he just ends up throwing most of em off or into the air) till its just him and Two Face left. Two Face decides to either deal with him or jump off and get away, but he cant flip his coin to decide because anything tossed into the air while moving on the penny will fly backwards because of the foward momentum. Two Face cant figure out what to do, is conflicted, and the thought is driving him mad since he cant flip his coin. Meanwhile the penny is sliding down to the end of street at the end of which is a building on the docks. If neither of them get off they'll die. Batman tries to get Two Face off, but Two Face wont let him, so Batman jumps off (or uses his batline to get up) at the last second while the penny with Two Face on it slams into the building causing it to crumble. Batman tries searching through the debris for Two Face, but the cops quickly show up and he gets out of there. Two Face cant be found by the cops and is presumed dead meanwhile who's ever in charge of the penny is now upset since its been ruined from the sliding and the crash. Bruce Wayne shows up and offers to buy it despite how messed up it is, he says it'll be intresting to have. The last scene would show Bruce putting up the penny in the cave (using the Bat-Bot or something) while Alfred asks him why he wanted it. Bruce tells him Harvey lived a dual life, just like he does, and like the two sides of the coin both are very diffrient, and both are very needed. "You cant have the Yin wihtout the Yang, or the darkness without the light, and this is here to remind me of that."
Crap that ended up being alot longer then I wanted. I just kept coming up with mroe stuff while writting it, and sorry if it seems bad I just came up with it all of the top of my head, just thinking about what would be cool to see with Two-Face in The Batman.
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Mar 12, 2005 18:05:21 GMT -5
Re: Two-Face versus Physics
I'll admit, it does seem dubious for Harvey Dent to have his hair largely undamaged (save for the bleaching effect) from the acid/explosion/whatever, but I don't think it's fair to knock a character's origin just because of the use of 'comic-book physics.'
For those of you not familiar with 'comic book physics', it's the magical power all comic book characters have that lets extraordinary things happen with no explanation...such as Super-Man's uncanny ability to defeat any enemy by spinning around in circles on the old 'Superfriends' show.
The real focal point of the Harvey Dent/Two-Face thing is for Bruce Wayne to lose a friend, and consequently, Two-Face and Bats have some of the most potent chemistry in the DC Universe.
And, Jeph Loeb's The Long Hallowe'en was quick to fix the hair problem (although Loeb also, annoyingly, also got rid of the character for no good reason other than to be a red herring...grrrr...argh...).
Aaaah, I'm going off on a tangent. What I'm getting at here is altering Poison Ivy, Riddler, Penguin or Man Bat's origin might be okay, but if the fan outcry was bad when Batgirl was revealed to be showing up before Robin, people would be screaming bloody murder if the Two-Face story was changed.
Or, to sum it up, if it ain't broken, don't fix it
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