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Post by /\/\att on Aug 28, 2004 6:53:18 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]Ok guys, with the first volume released, lets start talking amongst each other with our ideas about who is the master mind behind War Games.
I'll begin.
[/shadow]
Firstly, let me say that I didn't buy the ending of HUSH at ALL. I am not convinced that we know all there is to know about that arc. Now, move to the recent as the Crow Flies arc in Batman...at the end of that arc, Alfred finds Jason Todd's mask in the manor!
I personally think that Jason Todd may be the mastermind behind all of this! What better villian for Batman...his biggest failure..his biggest guilt, manifested as hatred.
Discuss!
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Post by reideen1313 on Aug 28, 2004 9:02:16 GMT -5
I've only read the first 2 issues of this arc - I'm waiting for the TPB when it comes out.
That said, my guess is Tim's dad. I think he is going to become the new Red Hood.
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Flamebird
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
nananananananananana Nightwing
Posts: 243
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Post by Flamebird on Aug 28, 2004 10:40:34 GMT -5
How sure are we that Jason Todd is really dead?
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Post by The Detective on Aug 28, 2004 11:57:33 GMT -5
I think it would be interesting to see JT as the mastermind.
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Flamebird
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
nananananananananana Nightwing
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Post by Flamebird on Aug 28, 2004 14:05:50 GMT -5
i didn;t thikn his death was that suspcious you know with the croowbar to the head from jker and the big explosion - his body was found right? it could be really good if he came back as long sas therre was a decent reason
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Post by reideen1313 on Aug 29, 2004 10:06:35 GMT -5
i didn;t thikn his death was that suspcious you know with the croowbar to the head from jker and the big explosion - his body was found right? it could be really good if he came back as long sas therre was a decent reason During the Hush storyline, his body turned up missing and the location of some of Ras' Lazarus pits were found..... |
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Flamebird
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Post by Flamebird on Aug 29, 2004 10:35:09 GMT -5
i idn;t read th ehush story line so it is definatly a possibilyity - bloody hell
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
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Post by Det27 on Aug 29, 2004 14:08:14 GMT -5
Spolier...  . /. . Spoiler is the mastermind. It's in the newest Detective Comics. She messed up one of Bruce's plans she found in his computer. Loeb and Lee are doing a follow up to Hush, so I'd wager Jason Todd and any major Hush revelations will be left for them. The Jason mask was probably a foreshadow of Loeb/Lee's return. But the mob boss meeting seems pretty clear cut unless Spoiler was mind controlled by Jason Todd. I can't think of any twists to change this that wouldn't be really hokey. The books, except for Cawoman(though Brubaker is quitting), Nightwing, and to a lesser extent Gotham Knights are in bad need of new writers. I hope they pare down the Batfamily with this arc (Orpheus was a really weak character in his own mini and still is, as he's a poor man's Batman. He needs to be seperated from Batman if he hopes to develop on his own, out of Gotham) I have hopes for Winick's and Manke's Batman run. Prometheus took down the JLA single handedly and now is just a henchman for Hush? Mob bosses are stupid enough to all meet in a dark alley from a mysterious invite? After No Man's land, each book had a clear direction. Batman was the action title. Detective was the detective/crime title. Gotham Knights was the Batfamily title. LOTDK was the early years title. Now they're all basically the same and are overexposing Batman and the rogues gallery. The editor needs to reign them in again. They also need a book where Batman is the main character and not a deus ex machina or Mr. Spock like father figure. In Batman Fugitive, we saw a lot of both Bruce and Batman, not just fight scenes with the standard rogues. Joker and Scarecorw need about a year off. Hush doesn't make sense as a catch and release and repeat rogue as he knows to much about Bruce. This crossover isn't as bad a Last Laugh, but it's no No Man's Land or Knightfall either, so far. They should make Jeph Loeb the editor for the bat-books if Schreck can't straighten them out. He's excellent at long term plotting, pay-off, and balancing character stories with action stories. They also need better qc on the one shots and minis as a lot are really dreadful of late (Trail of the gun, City of Light) and make me apphrehnsive to drop $5 on them. Quality over quantity. I've been buying all of the batbooks every week for 15 years now, and this is about the weakest and messiest I've ever seen them. |
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 30, 2004 5:39:56 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]I'm aware of Spoiler's involvement...but it just doesn't make sense that nothing more would happen in 16 issues! This can't be all their is, or the bat-titles have really gone down the toilet. I still think Jason Todd will be back as a Batman villian soon.  ...and as far as Loeb goes...until he wraps up the true identity of HUSH, i'm not impressed with his writing skills at ALL. (no , i don't believe hush is really Tommy)[/shadow] |
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Post by Drew on Aug 30, 2004 12:56:59 GMT -5
[shadow=teal,left,300]I did hear a rumor about J. Todd returning as the villain "Deathwing"[/shadow]
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 197
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Post by Det27 on Aug 30, 2004 15:23:21 GMT -5
Again, Loeb and Lee have had a follow up planned. If the story was resolved completely, there would be nothing to follow up. Jason was left open on purpose. His body was never located nor was the use of the Lazarus pit explained. Loeb and Geoff Johns can leave threads open for a year or so before resolution. Loeb's Superman/Batman complete arc is 25 issues or 2 years. The Lex Luthor as President arc ran for almost 4 years. He did the same on his Superman run. If all the story threads were resolved, it would be like one of Disney's sequels that are just 2 hour long advertisements. How can there be a sequel to Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty?
War Games is a mess of a story right now. There are so many inconsistancies and plots holes.
Batman in the past has handled larger gangs wars solo (Long Halloween) never mind struggling with a virtual army of vigilantes. If there is a twist, it will most likely be a stupid one. The Batman that hired the Spolier as Robin isn't the same Batman I've read for 15 years consecutively. DC has all of the best writers in comics right now (I don't like Bendis, Millar is ok but overated). They need some of them on Batman. Geoff Johns, Jeph Loeb, Judd Winick, David Goyer, Grant Morrison, Chuck Austen, Ed Brubaker, Greg Rucka, Devin Grayson, or even Joe Kelly. Grayson does Nightwing and Winick will be doing Batman, but the other titles are dragging the Batman down.
I'd think it might be the editor. There are way too many logic problems and qc issues among this group of books. Trail of the Gun being the worse, being overly preachy but with a ridiculous, even by comic's standard, premise. A gun that has seeking bullets that will make the holder the "ruler of the city." Where does whoeever steals it get the ammo for this prototype? The decaded old Secuction of the Gun worked as a PSA/propaganda depending on your view AND a good Batman story. This is neither.
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Post by PPAIN aka Michael on Aug 30, 2004 15:47:38 GMT -5
[glow=purple,2,300]Who ever the mastermind is he made an appearance in Gotham Knights this past week. He was wearing black pants, dress shirt and a tie. And in the shadows we could see that he had a "rounded head." Y'know as in he had no hair. I'm getting the feeling that it's Lex...sigh...yet again.[/glow]
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Josh
Gotham Tourist
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Post by Josh on Aug 30, 2004 15:57:53 GMT -5
[glow=purple,2,300]Who ever the mastermind is he made an appearance in Gotham Knights this past week. He was wearing black pants, dress shirt and a tie. And in the shadows we could see that he had a "rounded head." Y'know as in he had no hair. I'm getting the feeling that it's Lex...sigh...yet again.[/glow] [glow=blue,2,300]What happened to Harvey Dent ? Last time I remember seeing him was at the conclusion of Hush. And he was bald. Did I miss something?[/glow] |
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Post by PPAIN aka Michael on Aug 30, 2004 16:10:17 GMT -5
[glow=blue,2,300]What happened to Harvey Dent ? Last time I remember seeing him was at the conclusion of Hush. And he was bald. Did I miss something?[/glow] [glow=purple,2,300]That's true. I totally forgot about the bald Harvey. So it could be Harvey or Lex. More than likley Harvey 'cause we haven't seen him since Hush. And while on the subject, I don't believe that whole "Havey, not two face is in control" line in Hush. I mean, he put two sets of two rounds into Hush at the dock.[/glow] |
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Post by reideen1313 on Aug 30, 2004 16:33:01 GMT -5
Last I knew, Harvey was in jail and Lex was on Apokolips, so I think both of them are out.
I still think the Red Hood will get involved. As far as bald Bat Rogues, I would guess Hugo Strange will make an appearance.
The Lazarus pit in the Hush storyline was used by the Riddler, wasn't it? I thought he used it to cure a tumor or something like that.
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
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Post by Det27 on Aug 31, 2004 5:48:08 GMT -5
Right about the pit
Lex is being used in the last arc of Batman/Superman, so they won't let War Games use him.
Could be Dent. Forgot about him. But it seems he would be taking advantage of this rather than the cause.
Also, that might be a thread reserved for Loeb's return. He redid his origin in Long Halloween, so seems to have a thing for that character.
But how would he cause Spoiler to try to use one of Bruce's plans she saw in his computer? There is no intricate master plan here unless it is something really hokey.
I'd imagine the character in the shadows is one that's not important to any of the other books right now. Firefly or someone of the like.
If Batman is going to call in superpowered outsiders (Onyx) and use people not in his regular circle, why wouldn't he just call in the JLA. Especially with Prometheus, who used to be 10 times nastier than any of the villians in this book? The excuse used to be he wwanted to handle it himself, but he's been calling in people left and right. What are the stakes driving the mob bosses to keep killing each other? Whay are organized crime bosses acting the same as street gangs? One meeting where they know they were mutually set up? How could Batman handle the anarchy of No Man's Land with fewer partners but be overwhelmed by a few gangs that have decimated ranks? Where are the police for the most part?
There's a willing suspension of disbelief, but Batman is usually supposed to be street level and more realistic in a modern urban, northeast city setting.
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 31, 2004 8:35:07 GMT -5
Again, Loeb and Lee have had a follow up planned. If the story was resolved completely, there would be nothing to follow up. [shadow=green,left,300]...as I indicated in my post, I'm aware that it has yet to be wrapped up. You can't leave a storyline like Hush open forever...because as it stands now, its absurd. How can we be expected to swallow the load of garbage that was fed us in that arc? If there is truly a better explanation, I eagerly await it. I've been giving it the benefit of the doubt, but if they don't develop the character of Hush further, then I'm sorry, but he's just lame. Back to War Games...there's still someone controlling it from the shadows...now who is it? I'm willing to bet not a regular player. Seems a bit grandois for Huge Strange...Not really his style...I'm betting its something surprising..........but hey, at least they're not introducing a character in the beginning of the arc, then making him the mystery villian. ugh.[/shadow] |
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Post by The Detective on Aug 31, 2004 10:17:01 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300] but hey, at least they're not introducing a character in the beginning of the arc, then making him the mystery villian. ugh.[/shadow] He He, im glad to hear that The Hush story has yet to be finished because that ending was a kick in the balls, you wait a year then, oop's it's the guy i just made up who's the bad guy, Loeb's writings =  Jim lee's art =  Loeb could save himself if he can make the true ending of this Hush Arc unbelieably excellent. |
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
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Post by Det27 on Aug 31, 2004 14:55:16 GMT -5
You can swallow a rhastafarian Joker though, Batman using robot suits, or War Games in general?
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 31, 2004 18:17:41 GMT -5
You can swallow a rhastafarian Joker though, Batman using robot suits, or War Games in general? [shadow=green,left,300]That was a pointless insult. #1 we're discussing writing not art #2 we're discussing comics not toons #3 he's not rastafarian, thats an idiotic assumption War Games is far from over, so its hard to say anything just yet. So far its pretty lame.[/shadow] |
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
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Post by Det27 on Aug 31, 2004 19:02:31 GMT -5
He has dreads and a "jazz man" laugh. He may not literally be a rhasta, but he is definitely inspired by one.
It wasn't an insult. Just pointing out that you were as snippy to me when I made comments before seeing how the Batman("uptight" and "fanboy" but who isn't here?) is as I was to you about the follow up to Hush. It's pointless to argue over opinion, so I wont.
But even though Hush's ending wasn't the great mystery it was hyped to be, the most obvious suspect being Hush, for now, I'd say it is still the best Batman project of the past four years and I'd challenge anyone to name a better comic writer today than Loeb. Not so much on Hush, but on Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Superman for all Seasons, Batman/Superman, etc.
It's opnion, but sales and critical acclaim are on Loeb's side with or without Lee. You still may hate him as I still think the new Batman cartoon is a goofy looking, over-marketed toy ad so far. I'll agree to disagree. Both projects aren't out yet.
War Games is far enough in to tell that the basic premise was poorly planned by people who really aren't that good with crime fiction. So I don't think any of us can really guess what's coming next as it's not well written and logical enough to be a story that can be followed like that.
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Post by reideen1313 on Aug 31, 2004 19:24:11 GMT -5
Batman ends up using robots in Kingdom Come, so it's not that far fetched to think that he experimented with some kind of battle suit/mech early in his career. Bringing us back on topic though... I just read an interesting theory over on another msg board. What if Batman was the mastermind behind this? Hear me out. A War Game is, literally speaking, a military exercise to see how a certain situation would play out. What if, this was some type of simulation that ol' Bats cooked up to run on the Batcomputer - not really intended to be used at this time, if ever? Steph, being the young girl out to prove herself to Batman (and Robin) finds the "campaign" and thinks it's something that Batman has been planning all along - so she starts it. Only now, someone has decided to capitalize on the chaos and it's out of Batman and Co's hands. |
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Post by Robin on Aug 31, 2004 21:38:36 GMT -5
The new toon isn't out yet so lets wait until we see it. And this is the comics section not the toon section.
Anyways, heres my theory:
Jason Todd's body is missing and lazarus pits were found.
Being Batman's equal, Ra's could have gotten the remains of Jason and brought him back to shove Batman's greatest failure in his face, now that Batman's at his weakest, Ra's jumps in for the kill.
It's just a theory. ;D
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Post by hitman04 on Aug 31, 2004 22:21:51 GMT -5
i agree with matt, war games is lame. i hope it gets better in act 2.
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Post by /\/\att on Aug 31, 2004 23:01:24 GMT -5
He has dreads and a "jazz man" laugh. He may not literally be a rhasta, but he is definitely inspired by one. It wasn't an insult. Just pointing out that you were as snippy to me when I made comments before seeing how the Batman("uptight" and "fanboy" but who isn't here?) is as I was to you about the follow up to Hush. It's pointless to argue over opinion, so I wont. But even though Hush's ending wasn't the great mystery it was hyped to be, the most obvious suspect being Hush, for now, I'd say it is still the best Batman project of the past four years and I'd challenge anyone to name a better comic writer today than Loeb. Not so much on Hush, but on Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Superman for all Seasons, Batman/Superman, etc. It's opnion, but sales and critical acclaim are on Loeb's side with or without Lee. You still may hate him as I still think the new Batman cartoon is a goofy looking, over-marketed toy ad so far. I'll agree to disagree. Both projects aren't out yet. [shadow=green,left,300]The main difference being, you have not SEEN the batman, yet I've read HUSH. You haven't even seen an episode and you were already casting stones..I've sat thru a years suspense for absolute garbage of an ending. and he does NOT have a jazzman laugh. where the hell do you get these things. wait until you SEE an episode before you speak.[/shadow] |
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Post by shadowbat on Sept 1, 2004 14:57:48 GMT -5
stop with the jason todd theories. he's dead. he cold to the touch when bats finally found his body after the explosion. also the lazarus pits cannot bring back dead tissue, so it would not have worked on him. even denny o'neil said that to bring back this character would be an insult to the title, writers, and fans of the batman.
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Post by PPAIN aka Michael on Sept 1, 2004 15:13:17 GMT -5
stop with the jason todd theories. he's dead. he cold to the touch when bats finally found his body after the explosion. also the lazarus pits cannot bring back dead tissue, so it would not have worked on him. even denny o'neil said that to bring back this character would be an insult to the title, writers, and fans of the batman. [glow=purple,2,300]Well, there's a bit of a discrepency as to what the lazarus pits can do. In an issue of JLA, for example, Ras' gave Batman a choice: if Batman let him go, he would give the Waynes (in their coffins no less) the big dip into the pit. Naturally, Bats didn't but you get the idea. Anyway, I totally agree with you: Jason Todd's dead'er than disco. After the whole HUSH fake out, I doubt they'll bring him back. Besides we have our generations' Jason Todd to deal with--Spoiler.[/glow] |
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Post by /\/\att on Sept 2, 2004 4:47:35 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]You have no idea what the writers have planned, so don't tell me to stop with anything. I'll theorize all I like, thank you. I'm not saying I WANT Todd to come back, but they're playing with it too much to not do it. It will happen.
On another note, the new war games is good.
SPOILER
Tim Drake is back as Robin![/shadow]
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Post by PPAIN aka Michael on Sept 2, 2004 10:15:16 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300] Tim Drake is back as Robin![/shadow] [glow=purple,2,300]I'm officially giving thanks to all that is Holy.[/glow] |
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Det27
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 197
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Post by Det27 on Sept 2, 2004 14:31:39 GMT -5
Jason Todd makes a cool villain if he does really come back. Batman really can't fight him and he has a right to have it in for Batman, to a degree. If not just child endangerment as he was in civilain garb and not actually on a Robin mission when killed.
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Jim lee's art = 
