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Post by thrillkiller1157 on Sept 26, 2004 16:07:00 GMT -5
Well, I finally did it.....
I finished DK2.....
Before I go into this post, I would like to add a preface...
When I first heard Miller was doing a follow up to The Dark Knight Returns, I wanted NO PART OF IT. In fact, I was outraged. How could you mess with perfection? TDKR was Batman's swan song, so to say..it was a story of man who could not fight what he was. A story of someone who could not stand on the sidelines forever. A story about one person that could inspire the many to rise up and challange authority. It was the story of Batman's redemption. The art of TDKR is just that, art. So many of the panels in that book are visual poetry. When you see Batman and Carrie leaping across the skyline of Gotham, it's hard to find an adjective that does that image justice. Beautiful is just not enough.
How could Miller do this? How could he mess with his masterpiece? Did he have something to say, or was he in it for the pay?
When book one of DK2 came out in my local comic shop, I thumbed through the pages and scoffed. The art was just not Batman, in my opinion. It wasn't even Sin City, it was all over the place. With that, I didn't buy it, and I didn't bother with the other books. I didn't want to read it and tarnish "legend" of The Dark Knight Returns.
Flash forward a few years.....something lately has gotten into me. I don't know if it's the fat cats at work, but I remember reading the jacket summary on the tradepaper back of DK2:
"It's been three years since the events of THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, and everything is just fine. At least on the surface. What the world at large doesn't know is that it's a total sham. A perfectly choreographed, pretty little world where everything that's ugly, or even potentially disturbing, is all nicely wrapped up with neat little ribbons and swept under the carpet. Only he knows better."
That spoke to me. Maybe I related that summary to what's going on in the world today. But that summary spoke to me. I picked it up, swallowed my pride and began this odyssey.....
All in all, I don't know how to feel about DK2. The art was still disturbing, but I looked past that. I was pleasently surprised by the end of book one. It seemed to follow along the same lines of TDKR. The fat cats in power are in control of our every thought and action. The world has become a sort of police state. Ruled by a figurehead President, a puppet. And in this control, no one has risen to challenge this police state. Everyone, even the last son of Krypton, is in a catatonic state. No one rages. Seems as though everyone is caught up in fads, technology, or whatever fantasies that float each respected boat. The governement has everyone fooled. Except for Bruce. He sees that evil and feels there needs to be a change.
As I said, I was cool with Book One, my only gripe, how did Batman, Superman and the rest of our heroes get so skinny? I mean, do they not eat? For me, making them this lanky only makes them feel weak, not larger than life. When you see Batman in TDKR, okay he's old, but he is massive, he is intimidating. DK2 Batman, I just wanted to buy him a donut.....
Anyway, Book 2 was pretty good also, the bit with Superman and Wonder Woman was odd, but the second book still dealt with Batman's war against the oppresive totalitarian government run by Lex and Braniac.
But by Book3, I had no idea what was going on.....It went a direction that I didn't foresee, and I still am trying to get my barrings.....the end with Dick Grayson as the gene mutated killer, was that necessary? Seemed like since Miller killed off the Joker, he needed a villan for Batman. Why did he choose Robin, no clue. Was it needed, nope. Like 3 pages were spent on it, no real build up, no reason. Seemed like he added that for something Batman could do.
All in all, I'm confused. I don't know if I love it or hate it. As I said, I got into Book 1 and 2 because they seemed to be somewhat connected to the themes of TDKR. Miller's parallel with today's state of governement and culture is right on the money. But I still can't explain Book 3. Makes no sense to me.
Moreover, DK2 really feels like a Superman story. His redemption from being government puppet to free thinking "hero." The bit with Kandor and his "daughter," okay, that would be cool for a Superman book, this is DK 2, right? Batman isn't even in the book that much. Maybe Book2 is the most action we see him in.
Maybe it will take time, but I just don't know. Right now, I feel disappointed. I'm sure these points have been brought up numerous times, since I'm a bit late on reading this title, but I just felt like posting this to try and make sense of it all.
Part of me wishes I didn't read this at all. Part of me is glad that I did.
Guess it will take time.....
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Post by reideen1313 on Sept 26, 2004 16:21:45 GMT -5
Great review! I think this is a good topic for discussion.
Y'know, I was late reading this one too for many of the same reasons. I didn't like the new art style. I didn't think that Miller could possibly add anything to the story. Long before Marvel decided to write a story about Wolverine's final days, Miller had already done the job for DC with DKR. Fortunately, I was browsing at a little hole in the wall comic shop I never go to and I got the hardcover edition for $5.00. Yes, you read that right - $5 bucks. I haven't read it in about 7 months, so I'm a little rusty on it. I do remember that it was good - for $5 dollars, how could it be bad? I would agree that the art style is different from DKR and Sin City. It was almost like Miller wanted to go in a different direction with his art in this book - to differentiate it from DKR and Sin City. Personally, I think that all artists have to change and grow from time to time in order to remain productive. (John Byrne, in contrast, has been drawing the same characters, just with different costumes for 10+ years - he's not growing anywhere but around his middle. ;D) Needless to say, I warmed up to the art by the end of the book.
DKR is on my annual must read list, so I'll probably sit down around the end of the year and read them back to back.
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Post by thrillkiller1157 on Sept 26, 2004 17:36:34 GMT -5
Thanks for replying to my post reideen1313.....
now I know I'm not the only one out there who was a little lost....
I was thinking about it a bit more.....
I think another reason why DK2 doesn't sit well with me, is that it feels blatantly fake.....
Obviously we all know the line between fantasy and reality. DK2 seems to shamelessly say "hey, this stuff is fake!"
The Dark Knight Returns feels "real." Based in a "real" Gotham, with surroundings that mirror our own. The characters, physically, look real- the lines, cuts, colors-they mirror those in our world.
DK2 feels like a video game gone wrong. Gotham is not "tangible." Come to think of it, I don't think we see Gotham like we did in TDKR. DK2's characters don't have those hard lines that make them seem like "real" individuals. Again, going back to the lanky Batman, he seems more like a version of Timm's Animated Series which would be rooted fantasy. Batman of TDKR with his old, fading muscles, seems more in touch with our reality. Touching on the physical limitations of a man.
The Dark Knight Returns seems real because it dealt with things that we face on a real level(violence, nuclear weapons). Obviously, there is one aspect of The Dark Knight Returns that isn't on the "real" level, that being Kent, but we'll let that slide.
With DK2, how many times have we dealt with a giant robotic looking toad(Brainiac)ravaging our city.
Obviously this bit of fantasy makes our comics worthwhile, my point is that The Dark Knight Returns wanted to take the fantasy out of Batman and stick him in the real world. Make it gritty and depressing, much like real life. We can relate to the world of The Dark Knight Returns.
DK2 goes back on that philosophy and takes Batman to a world that we cannot relate to. Perhaps we can realate thematically(totalitarian government, media hype)but I can't relate to a genetically altered Dick Grayson who can attach his severed head back to his body, or giant robotic toad.
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Post by JotaEse on Oct 4, 2004 10:34:13 GMT -5
REALLY Didn't like DK2....the story was kinda bad, I'm not a big fan of the art, and evil Dick sucked!
Only positive moment for me...Plastic Man portrayed as one of the most deadly men alive. It's true...he could be!
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 15, 2004 10:13:09 GMT -5
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Post by BullocK on Oct 15, 2004 10:32:37 GMT -5
[shadow=red,left,300]I read DK2 when it originally released. I was and still am, a huge fan of Miller's work on TDKR. But DK2 I felt was severly lacking. It was difficult for me to latch on to the story..it jumped all over the place, and to be quite honest, left me more than a bit confused. Miller's art on this one was horrendous. Seriously, I think a five year old with a box of Crayola's could have done better. Still, it was nice to see what had become of GL, The Flash (who is basically used as a power source..a human battery if you will), and of course Plastic Man. I was happy to see that he was being portrayed as one of the most dangerous men alive..because if you think about it, he is. WW and Supes chitty chitty bang bang in the sky was a bit...awkward. Nor did I care for their daughter and that whole affair. Been a few years since I last read it, need to again, if anything for just trying to fill in the blanks I have concerning the story. Whoever said most sequels suck were right on the money. Almost 18 years have passed and I can still remember almost every single detail to TDKR. It's a classic..and one of the best Batman stories out there. DK2 just kinda came and went, the story just didn't stick with me, or make me feel for the characters and their cause, unlike it's predecessor.  [/shadow] |
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2004 12:36:47 GMT -5
Since this book is a good 3 years or so old, I'm not including any spoiler warning. If you haven't read it and are afraid of something ruining the book for you, don't read this. ;D
I would agree that Miller's art on this book is one of the things that make it less of a classic than the original IMO. Miller's rendition of WW was horrible if you ask me. Yes, she's a warrior, amazon princess - but she's not a man. She is the female ideal of the DC universe. She shouldn't have a similar body to the Flash or the Atom. The Superman/WW tryst didn't bother me though - who else is Supes going to turn to when Lois is dead? It made sense to me. I thought the GL thing was really lame. He ends up as an energy being? He's part of the power battery? Not a good ending for a hero in my book. I actually prefer the Kingdom Come version of GL - up in his satellite, monitoring everything. That's a much better portrayal of the Hal Jordan character IMO.
There were things about DK2 that I enjoyed though. I enjoyed seeing Batman beat Superman - again. It wasn't a total suprise - after the first time in DKR, you knew that it would happen again in DK2, but I still enjoyed it. I enjoyed Plas talking smack to EM "You just stretch - you don't even turn into stuff" or something along those lines. The fact that in Batman's mind Plas is the most dangerous person on the planet really cracked me up. I never thought about him like that before - I've always seen him as a comic relief character. Not quite as bad as Ambush Bug, but still, comic relief. Carrie's mode of transport for the Atom was hillarious! Seeing Kandor was another highpoint. I've always wondered about the bottle getting broken and having all those Kryptonians running loose... I'd like to see a sequel or a mini series based solely on them. My favorite scene from this book though was when Batman was getting pummelled by Lex. After it was revealed that Batman took the beating just to keep Lex occupied I thought it was great! It totally played to the mindset of Batman - doing whatever he had to, to get the job done.
I think overall, even though the art was a let down and the story jumped around a bit, this was a good book. It wasn't great and it certainly didn't live up to the expectations of many fans. I think the biggest problem was it had Star Wars-itis. There was a good 18 years of build-up of fans anticipating a sequel. When it wasn't a copy of the original, people immediately focused on the bad and didn't see any of the good in this story.
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Post by HUSH on Oct 15, 2004 14:01:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I will read this at all. TDKR is undoubtedly my favorite Batman graphic novel. I don't want to ruin it for myself. If I found a hard cover of this I'm sure I would buy it to have in my collection(for completeness), but I don't think I would read it, or try not to. I probably would get really curious and cave in, tho. ;D I'm very undecided on this; I want to know what happens in the story, but don't want to ruin my perception of TDKR. |
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Post by hitman04 on Oct 15, 2004 22:27:06 GMT -5
dk2 was alright but one thing bugged me more than anything else:in TDKR Dick was the huge disfigured mutant leader("there he is, dick the mutant leader.we never faced an evil like this, we only fought humans"), and in DK2 he looked normal again, well, did he get plastic surgery or something? and how did he become a mutant in the first place? i'm sorry if this sounds stupid, but i need to know how this stuff happens in the first place.
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2004 22:39:43 GMT -5
dk2 was alright but one thing bugged me more than anything else:in TDKR Dick was the huge disfigured mutant leader("there he is, dick the mutant leader.we never faced an evil like this, we only fought humans"), and in DK2 he looked normal again, well, did he get plastic surgery or something? and how did he become a mutant in the first place? i'm sorry if this sounds stupid, but i need to know how this stuff happens in the first place.
Man. What kind of dork am I? I'm able to pick up the book and tell you exactly what's going on 4 minutes after your post....*shakes head at own geekiness* ;D |
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Post by hitman04 on Oct 15, 2004 22:48:36 GMT -5
hmmm it's been so long since i read it. i guess i read that wrong. sorry.
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 15, 2004 22:49:57 GMT -5
No prob. I'm just a bigger dork than I thought!  Thanks for pointing that out by the way!! ;D
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Post by hitman04 on Oct 15, 2004 23:02:28 GMT -5
you want to talk about being a dork? i'm full of dorky, useless knowlege: did you know that the majority of dust is made of human skin, and when you smell an object, you're inhaling microscopic pieces of that object, there are a few more that i uh.....forgot ;D
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Post by re on Oct 16, 2004 0:19:46 GMT -5
I have heard nothing but bad reviews for this book, and that is why I will not even give this book a shot. I want no part of this book, and never shall I read this book as long as I am a Batman fan.
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Post by hitman04 on Oct 16, 2004 0:21:30 GMT -5
it's decent at best. it could've been alot better. you'll see what i mean when you read it
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Post by reideen1313 on Oct 16, 2004 0:32:32 GMT -5
I have heard nothing but bad reviews for this book, and that is why I will not even give this book a shot. I want no part of this book, and never shall I read this book as long as I am a Batman fan. Tell ya what. Go to a local Barnes & Noble or Borders bookstore. Sit in one of their nice comfy chairs for an hour and read it. Then, you got to make your own decision about it being good or bad. you want to talk about being a dork? i'm full of dorky, useless knowlege: did you know that the majority of dust is made of human skin, and when you smell an object, you're inhaling microscopic pieces of that object, there are a few more that i uh.....forgot ;D Hey - that kind of knowledge might do you some good on Jeopardy or Who wants to be a millionaire. I highly doubt that I will ever see a category on Jeopardy entitled "Quotes from DKR" - I'd like quotes from DKR for $1000, Alex... its just not going to happen. ;D |
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Post by hitman04 on Oct 16, 2004 0:35:49 GMT -5
I do that all the time with books. i even take a notebook for the books i can't finish reading and i write the page number in it. it's a great idea. and cheaper than buying the books too!
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Severen
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Do I Look Like I'm Joking?
Posts: 167
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Post by Severen on Oct 16, 2004 9:22:39 GMT -5
I think DKSB pretty much boiled down to being two parts great story and one part ill concieved follow up to me when all was said and done.
I actually really enjoyed the first two books, but the third book seemed to me like Miller had no idea where the story was going himself and was kind of at a loss with how to wrap everything up, and so by book three we had all these great characters that had been introduced in various parts of the past two books, but who'd never actually be utilized and have any real part in the rest of the story, and who just seemed to be forgotten and left on the sidelines as the conclusion loomed.
And the conclusion itself with Dick seemed like a cheat, it just didn't work or play for me, structually or logically, and I was just never convinced at all by it, and it also seemed tacked on almost for shock value in the hopes that it might be mistaken for being "powerful", but even in Millers Dark Knight future the characterizations seemed off and forced in the finale of the book, it just didn't ring true to me.
Miller is my all time fave comic book writer, read most of the things he's ever done, but with this one I think he got in over is head and just didn't know enough of the story ahead of time to make the whole thing work. He seemed to be flying by the seat of his pants on this one, and he pretty much got away with it for two books, but by the time the third (much delayed) issue came around I think ultimately it just kinda blew up in his face.
It's still not a horrible book, like I said I quite enjoyed the first two books, it's just not a very satisfying one at the end of the day, least not for me anyhow.
Severen.
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Post by JokerFC on Oct 16, 2004 11:11:17 GMT -5
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Post by Faithfulbutler on Oct 18, 2004 18:58:05 GMT -5
It's very hard to beat DKR and i agree that DK2 did go along nicely but something was lost along the way as the story went on.That's the short version for me without going into a deep analysis,still i'm glad i have it.
Personally what i would like to see is a Novelisation of both books where more detail could be gone into.Like No Mans Land,the novel of that was absolutely outstanding,and i have yet to acquire the Kingdom Come Novel.I can hope can't i?
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Sands
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Your not the devil, your just PRACTICE
Posts: 125
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Post by Sands on Sept 11, 2005 18:18:24 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]Like I care that this thread is a year old, lol
Ok so one day I decided why dont I just go out and read DK2, since DKR is one of my favorite books in general. If I could go back I probally would not have bought the book for this one reason, it turned out not to be a Batman story (IMO) It was more like a Justice League story. Now when i finished reading it i was dissapointed. .......... dissapointed?!?! huh this is Frank Freaking Miller how could I be dissapointed, but I was I actully regreted buying the book. I dunno what it was, it was just there wasnt enough Batman.
After a few weeks I actully went back to it and read parts of it over again, and I changed my mind. As I looked back I actully grew to like the story, when you think about it, it really was a great tale of redemption for the superheroes who have wither become slaves or puppets of the goverment or just been forgotton. The thing about this story is that it really makes you HATE Superman. Im glad I'm a Batman fan or else I'd be pissed. The inclusion of dick Grayson become a psycotic raping Maniac was a nice touch in my opinion. I know all the Robin Fans will disagree. But I was never a very big Robin fan to begin with. I liked how Dick was confused, how he hated Bruce so much but deep down loved him. The hinted realationship between Batman and Carrie didnt bother me either especcially after seeing Sin City.
So in the end If I had to read this story, no I dont think I would, and No I dont recommend it chances are even though i liked it I'm not so sure you will. [/glow]
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[/shadow]
