|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 14, 2004 15:29:53 GMT -5
Meh he heh...well, I said no Bruce(of course!), but I don't suppose it's possible to be ever COMPLETELY w/o Bruce, and a little bit of him is ok, like when he remembers his parents, since he was Bruce when they were alive. Maybe a little bit of Bruce is still in there, in the form of the memories of his parents.  Still, I like the real Batman, besides that little bit of Bruce, to be BATMAN! |
|
|
|
Post by Batboy on Dec 14, 2004 16:43:48 GMT -5
When we see Batman, we see Bruce. Bruce has been Batman ever since his parents died, Batman is who he became and grew up to be. Like HUSH said a little bit of Bruce is necessary but He is no longer who he used to be, he is now Batman.
|
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 14, 2004 17:21:45 GMT -5
When we see Batman, we see Bruce. Bruce has been Batman ever since his parents died, Batman is who he became and grew up to be. Like HUSH said a little bit of Bruce is necessary but He is no longer who he used to be, he is now Batman. Precisely.  |
|
|
|
Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Dec 14, 2004 19:02:20 GMT -5
Bruce, just no Batusi.
|
|
|
|
Post by Batdan on Dec 14, 2004 20:25:29 GMT -5
Oh, c'mon, I love the Batusi.
Well, maybe not.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roback on Dec 14, 2004 20:59:09 GMT -5
There would be no Batman without a Bruce Wayne.
Batmans entire existance and drive stem from that horrible moment that occured in Crime Alley all of those years ago along with the kindness of one Dr. Leslie Thompkins which has resenated inside of Bruce for all of these years ensuring that he'd never cross his quest for justice with vengenance.
Many aspects that have occurred throughout the Batmans existance have helped to shape just who he is today. The loss of Jason Todd, Barbara's tragic shooting by the Joker and all the way up to the recent death of Stephanie Brown ( Spoiler ) has molded Bruce into what he is today....the Dark Knight of Gotham City!
|
|
|
|
Post by /\/\att on Dec 15, 2004 0:42:55 GMT -5
When we see Batman, we see Bruce. Bruce has been Batman ever since his parents died, Batman is who he became and grew up to be. Like HUSH said a little bit of Bruce is necessary but He is no longer who he used to be, he is now Batman. [shadow=green,left,300]really thats funny cause he was bruce and batman for 45 years of continuity  [/shadow] |
|
|
|
Post by ThatBlockoGuy on Dec 15, 2004 8:21:30 GMT -5
[shadow=green,left,300]really thats funny cause he was bruce and batman for 45 years of continuity [/shadow] Agreed. Batman in his heart is Bruce Wayne, a scared child who simply does not want either himself or others to experience the pain of losing someone through sensless violence. 'sides if Bruce is "dead" well, hey people this is the DCU where no one stays dead forever lol! |
|
|
|
Post by Robin on Dec 15, 2004 15:16:00 GMT -5
I like the dark knight. The darker the better for me.
But I also like in 'The Batman' that there is some Bruce because he hasn't gone through all the tragedy that he has gone through in the comics.
|
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 15, 2004 15:49:02 GMT -5
Agreed. Batman in his heart is Bruce Wayne, a scared child who simply does not want either himself or others to experience the pain of losing someone through sensless violence. 'sides if Bruce is "dead" well, hey people this is the DCU where no one stays dead forever lol! Batman, in his heart, is Batman. He became Batman when his parents died, although he had to look hard to find his true self. Bruce is a little part of who he is. His true self is Batman now. That's one of the main things that is special about Batman, unique about him. Whenever Superman isn't in the blue-and-red suit, he is Clark. Same with other heroes. But Batman is always Batman, even when he is pretending to be Bruce, a normal guy. Batman is not a normal guy. He is Batman, a driven, obsessed, haunted, dark guy. Underneath it all, no matter what he does, he is Batman.  |
|
|
|
Post by Batdan on Dec 15, 2004 19:51:58 GMT -5
That's one of the main things that is special about Batman, unique about him. Whenever Superman isn't in the blue-and-red suit, he is Clark. Same with other heroes. Side point: I don't agree that Superman is ever just Clark. He is Superman and Clark is the disguise, even if he was raised as Clark. Not that I want to start another thread here. |
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 15, 2004 20:16:12 GMT -5
Side point: I don't agree that Superman is ever just Clark. He is Superman and Clark is the disguise, even if he was raised as Clark. Not that I want to start another thread here. Yes...perhaps I went overboard with that...but Superman and Clark are so similar, in their morals and personalities, they're the same person. Batman, however, is nothing like Bruce; when Batman is just being himself, he acts like Batman, and does things like Batman. He IS Batman, and Bruce is an act. |
|
|
|
Post by JokersGalPal on Dec 15, 2004 20:51:09 GMT -5
[shadow=maroon,left,300]I like Bruce because his pain and vengence made Batman.
Give me the Dark Knight, dammit ;D[/shadow]
|
|
|
|
Post by Robin on Dec 16, 2004 15:52:50 GMT -5
Batman, in his heart, is Batman. He became Batman when his parents died, although he had to look hard to find his true self. Bruce is a little part of who he is. His true self is Batman now. That's one of the main things that is special about Batman, unique about him. Whenever Superman isn't in the blue-and-red suit, he is Clark. Same with other heroes. But Batman is always Batman, even when he is pretending to be Bruce, a normal guy. Batman is not a normal guy. He is Batman, a driven, obsessed, haunted, dark guy. Underneath it all, no matter what he does, he is Batman. That's nicely put. |
|
|
|
Post by Batlaw on Dec 16, 2004 16:52:16 GMT -5
Bruce is a Nec. element! but batman IS the DARK kinght.
Ive said before, batman reluctantly reverts back to bruce wayne as it is inescapable...that is who he is, no matter how long or far he runs, Batman must eventually face himself from time to time. Becomming Batman was an escape from grief/loss Etc. and for many reasons, in many ways, taking off the mask he has created always causes him to face all thos issues ane re-live them at least to an extent.
Superman shines as Superman. In times of need, Clark
Kent tears open his shirt and up up and away to save the day. He "becomes" Superman and then return to his comfort zone. Its a natural, bright transformation.
Batman on the other hand, (reluctantly) "removes" his mask at the end of the night after the battle when there is nothing / no one left to fight and he is "forced"
to confront who he IS (Bruce). It is a much more somber and humble transformation. The "un-masking" process for Batman is him having to expose himself (no comments please lol) and for him, thats a tough thing to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 16, 2004 17:47:02 GMT -5
Bruce is a Nec. element! but batman IS the DARK kinght. Ive said before, batman reluctantly reverts back to bruce wayne as it is inescapable...that is who he is, no matter how long or far he runs, Batman must eventually face himself from time to time. Becomming Batman was an escape from grief/loss Etc. and for many reasons, in many ways, taking off the mask he has created always causes him to face all thos issues ane re-live them at least to an extent. Superman shines as Superman. In times of need, Clark Kent tears open his shirt and up up and away to save the day. He "becomes" Superman and then return to his comfort zone. Its a natural, bright transformation. Batman on the other hand, (reluctantly) "removes" his mask at the end of the night after the battle when there is nothing / no one left to fight and he is "forced" to confront who he IS (Bruce). It is a much more somber and humble transformation. The "un-masking" process for Batman is him having to expose himself (no comments please lol) and for him, thats a tough thing to do. While I don't necessarily agree with what you've said, I'll defend to the death your right to say it! ;D But I believe that the mask is not what makes him Batman. It is his drive, his obsession, his darkness, and his past. Even when he is not in costume, he IS Batman. That's just who he is now; his true personality. |
|
|
|
Post by Batlaw on Dec 16, 2004 21:03:04 GMT -5
Thanks Hush. But I think you misinterpreted my comments? Perhaps I didnt word my thought correctly? (guess I'm not the "author I thought I was LOL) No, the "mask" most certainly does not make the Bat-man! Please read my similar post in the "Post Crisis Vs. Pre Crisis" thread, maybe its written better? Anyway, I personally believe Batman has no "True" personality. I consider the Bat persona an escape for Bruce Wayne and feel Bruce Wayne doesnt know who / how to BE Bruce Wayne. The Batman as he has created himself is nearly void of Any "personality" (pure business). The "real" Bruce Wayne, or who he was to be, essentially disappeared that fateful night. The Bruce Wayne people know in the comic universe is a facade. Batman does not / cannot deal with that night (Bruce), and has been "running" ever since. Batman's expieriences, lessons, achievments Etc. are who he is. Batman is a mask as much as Bruce Wayne. They are two halfs of the whole. Thats what makes batman so awesome and appealing, he is diferent things to dif. people. everone has their own unique and personal "relationship W/ him. |
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 16, 2004 21:22:12 GMT -5
Thanks Hush. But I think you misinterpreted my comments? Perhaps I didnt word my thought correctly? (guess I'm not the "author I thought I was LOL) No, the "mask" most certainly does not make the Bat-man! Please read my similar post in the "Post Crisis Vs. Pre Crisis" thread, maybe its written better? Anyway, I personally believe Batman has no "True" personality. I consider the Bat persona an escape for Bruce Wayne and feel Bruce Wayne doesnt know who / how to BE Bruce Wayne. The Batman as he has created himself is nearly void of Any "personality" (pure business). The "real" Bruce Wayne, or who he was to be, essentially disappeared that fateful night. The Bruce Wayne people know in the comic universe is a facade. Batman does not / cannot deal with that night (Bruce), and has been "running" ever since. Batman's expieriences, lessons, achievments Etc. are who he is. Batman is a mask as much as Bruce Wayne. They are two halfs of the whole. Thats what makes batman so awesome and appealing, he is diferent things to dif. people. everone has their own unique and personal "relationship W/ him. That's a good way to look at it. Personally, I do see a very distinct persona when I look at Batman; the way he speaks, his attitude...I really think of in in a way I've described it before: that the true Bruce Wayne persona is the memories Batman has of his parents. That is how I think of Bruce Wayne. Of course, it's not like Bruce doesn't exist; call him Batman or Bruce, he's the same dark person, IMO. Also, I thought about this, and Bruce Wayne didn't really "die" the night his parents were killed, instead, he underwent a process of grief and vengefulness that transformed him into a dark, brooding person, and Batman is the embodiment of his persona, which resulted from the murder. I guess what I'm trying to say is that Bruce Wayne isn't dead, he is the same person as Batman. Like I said, no matter whether you call him Bruce or Batman, he is the same person, the persona recognized as Batman. That's how I rationalize it. |
|
|
|
Post by Dr. Baghead on Dec 17, 2004 4:17:01 GMT -5
I voted for there to be Bruce, I know people LOVE to over romanticize the idea that Bruce is so commited he's become Batman with Bruce just being his way of blending in with the normies, but I've always thought the insane dark knight no-Bruce Batman represented a scared child crying for his mommy... which he very much is on some level in any version... but Bruce created Batman to prevent what happened to his parents from happening to other people, so his fully becoming Batman and ditching his life as Bruce is his way of saying, "look at me Daddy, I learned from my mistake and it will NEVER happen again! Do you love me?! I'm sorry for what I let happen, no more movies for Bruce, you won't get hurt again!? I'll beat up who ever takes mommy's pearls, so that means you love me, right?!"
He claims he he is "the darkness" and "the night" in the same way a little kid screams under his bed he's not afraid of the monsters... it's not a threat to villians, it's him pumping himself up so his own fears are put to rest in his mind
Also consider that when Batman enters an ideal dream world for whatever reason it's of a life were Bruce never needed to create Batman, Where Thomas and Martha survived and Bruce is happy? If you could have your most perfect dream granted, would you wish were never born or that you existed as someone who was your complete and utter opposite? Wouldn't Batman's ideal war be one where he won his war on crime, not one where crime was as rampant as ever and he just turned a blind eye? A dream of a loving unbroken family and parents who never left suddenly is one of a child, not a grim vilgilante sworn to hunt down scum wherever it hides.... and even if you don't consider those dream world's cannon, what do you think he dreams of every night in regular sleep? Fighting the Joker and sending him to Arkham successfully or his parents lying their on the alley bleeding to death?
But if he lived his life as Bruce and was only Batman when their was crime a foot, I'd be able to believe his devotion to being Batman was all about the crime fighting and not a cry for love. Since that would acknowledge that although he's never forgotten about it, his life is not ruled by what happened in that alleyway. And although I don't expect him to ever be the happy go lucky playboy he pretend to be, there's no reason Bruce should be nothing more then an empty facade some whinny prick wears so stockholders keep giving him money.
Has Batman ever served time in Arkham? I mean in a real cannon Bat book has he ever been thrown into Arkham because you'd think someone would notice how bat-poop insane he's gotten the man needs some help. (although, to go slightly off topic friends and co-works in the Batman universe seem to like watching self destruction... you'd think the staff at Arkham would want to reform Harley Quinn since she was one of them and had to have been someone's friend while working there, but they seem content to let her rot in a cell and mingle with both the Joker AND Poison Ivy in the break room furthering her mental breakdown... I assume Nightwing and Gordon are enjoying Bruce slowly go insane in the same way which is why they haven't gotten him help)
but it's probably too late to make a happy Bruce/Batman co-existance just because of how comics work these days. Because if you let Bruce be happy and he might try and find romance so he isn't alone, which probably leads to him and Catwoman finally getting together, which obviously since comics can't have happy ends leads to "WHO KILLED SELENA KYLE?!" a 7 month macro-series spanning all of Batman's core books and referenced breifely in Superman/Batamn and JLA all as an attempt to return Batman back from someone with a healthy layered mentality, to a one note 'dark' a-hole who's only purpose is to avenge a dead loved one.
I like how Batman is portrayed in the cartoons a lot, since there Batman can be angsty and grim and Bruce can have normal personal relationships when he's himself, there's no conflict between the personas where "Batman" is upset he's forced to pretend to be Bruce, nor does having to be a normal human being hurt the dark side of Batman (well okay, being on kid's TV does that to an extent, but he's no less a Batman because Bruce has to have a life). of course, I guess it's only a matter of time until an Adult Swim version of Batman comes along where all he does is brood and the Joker makes it his main goal in life to murder everyone Batman loves driving him deeper into madness, so even in cartoons I'm sure the harmonius Bruce/Batman persona is doomed in the future.
sorry if I seem cynical and ranty... I think my point got away from me it's so late.
|
|
|
|
Post by re on Dec 17, 2004 16:55:54 GMT -5
I prefer Bruce and Batman as this gives the story more life. |
|
|
|
Post by Batdan on Dec 18, 2004 11:04:18 GMT -5
There are a lot of really thoughtful posts on this thread. I guess when it comes down to it, in my mind, a Bruceless Batman is an emotional cripple, which inherently implies he is defeated already.
I prefer not to think of Batman that way. He needs that humanity. Driven, intense and obsessive, yes. But still human.
|
|
|
|
Post by HUSH on Dec 18, 2004 16:38:32 GMT -5
Dr. Baghead, Batman without Bruce is NOT insane. He is very revenge driven, but not insane. Which brings me to a big reason he does what he does: REVENGE. Sure, he wants to make sure what happened to him never happens to anyone else; that's a big reason, as well, but crime fighting is how he gets revenge against every single criminal for what one of them did to him, and what they do to all their victims. I'm sure every human has an impulse to get revenge for something at some point, he just acts on that impulse. It satisfies him. I hope you don't think that being vengeful makes him insane; if it does, then every single human is insane, because as I said, I think every human wants revenge for something against someone at some point. He also is NOT a "little kid crying for his mommy." He helps everyone around him. His life is the prevention of suffering, as well as revenge for his own suffering. He is selfless, but he also does what he does for himself, his own needs. And if he is violent, it's because he needs to be. Also, "living his life as Bruce and only being Batman when crime is afoot" doesn't make sense to me, because crime is ALWAYS afoot. Always has been, always will be. I don't think Batman would sit by, relaxing as Bruce when people suffered. He is only Bruce to keep his secret safe, and he doesn't enjoy it. I believe that to a certain extent, he enjoys being Batman. And as I said, he certainly doesn't enjoy being Bruce. The way so many people want things to be, with Bruce being his true identity, is how it was in the 60's, and look how they seem to us today. Even the 70's went by that ideal, and they seem pretty light these days, too. To wrap this up, I will simply say that to be a Dark Knight(cool) instead of a Caped Crusader(goofy), Batman must be Batman. One last thing: I want everyone in this discussion to know that just because we might not agree on this, I have nothing against anyone here. I hope this is seen as a friendly discussion.  |
|
Still, I like the real Batman, besides that little bit of Bruce, to be BATMAN!
[/shadow]
