Hush or Long Halloween overrated?

[Batdan]

-- SPOILER THREAD --

Call this the blasphemy thread if you will, but I'm curious if anyone else feels these stories were a mite overrated?

I'm not looking to knock any writer, I'm just curious because I liked a lot of things about both these stories but really didn't like the endings in either case.

I felt compelled to create this thread because I posited the concept elsewhere on the board and didn't want to hijack a different thread by going off point.

These are considered modern classics, so I'd like to get some debate going on this.

Thoughts?

[HUSH]

My opinion on the end of Hush is that it isn't the end of the story; there's gonna be more, so one can't really call it an ending. So I think what Loeb was trying to have was a sort of implied cliffhanger, and through the story, left undertones that the "revelations" as to Hush's identity were false, therefore leaving a lot of room for a sequel. Once the sequel comes out, I'm sure one will be able to put Hush and "Hush 2" together and have a complete story. The Hush arc was part 1, IMO. As for The Long Halloween, I had no problems with any of it, I thought it was a solid story.

[Dr. Crane]

I like both stories very much. Definitely modern classics. The first Graphic novel of Hush was not very intriguing to me, I only read on the second part because I heard mention of Jason Todd from a friend of mine. I didn't think I'd like it very much, but I absolutely loved it. It really shows in depth the relationship Bruce/batman has with dick grayson/nightwing, his relationships with the joker, Gordon, and of course shows much more into Bruce Wayne's childhood.

The long halloween is also another favorite of mine. I mean, I love any story that can put so many villains inside it, and make it look good like the long halloween did. Plus it's story of the Harvey dent/two-face creation was a very good addition. The sequel to the long halloween (Dark Victory) was however not as well done. I still enjoy it, but after reading the long halloween I expected a tad bit more from it.

[Batdan]

See, here's my take:

-- I loved the artwork of Hush and individual chapters worked, I thought. But the slapdash Riddler confrontation at the end, I thought, fell flat. I also think introducing a character and trying to make him an important part of Bruce's past is a cheap ploy.

I gotta say that not giving you Hush's identity is a letdown, too. There's room for a sequel in any event. Not giving you the ID is a tease after you've invested in the story and it's clearly been designed as an arc.

-- And as far as Long Halloween went, the whole Gilda angle was preposterous, I thought. Also, there really wasn't any indication this was going to happen except for the Gotcha! ending. One of the central precepts of a good mystery is offering subtle clues to the solution. There was nothing that legitimately spoke of Gilda's connection to the case.

Just my opinions though.

[IamI]

Batdan, I agree with your Hush summation 100% and I can see your point. Regarding Long Halloween my impression was there were multiple killers. Just as Loeb left the door open with Jason Todd returning in Hush, he also left a hanging thread with Gilda's role. Alberto Falcone, who we assumed to have committed most of the murders returned in Dark Victory. We will possibly see another installment with Gilda returning? In LH she just wanted her husband home, so you might be able to understand her motives. Time will tell what Loeb has in store.

[Batdan]

iami said:

Batdan, I agree with your Hush summation 100% and I can see your point. Regarding Long Halloween my impression was there were multiple killers. Just as Loeb left the door open with Jason Todd returning in Hush, he also left a hanging thread with Gilda's role. Alberto Falcone, who we assumed to have committed most of the murders returned in Dark Victory. We will possibly see another installment with Gilda returning? In LH she just wanted her husband home, so you might be able to understand her motives. Time will tell what Loeb has in store.

Interesting. Maybe I would have felt differently if I read these as monthly installments instead of in TPB form. I dunno ...

Anyway, I think my opinions cost me a karma point. Hmmm.

[JokerFC]

well I read them in TPB man as I do with most (because comics are nearly the equivalent of 5 dollars each in Ireland so they are too expensive to get regularly)and it didnt spoil/damage them for me.I felt Hush was a tad overrated but feel differently now Im getting into the "big picture" if you will.

as for TLH a classic all the way ???cant wait for the figures

[Arkham16]

Well, i enjoyed both stories very much. I loved Long Halloween and thoroughly enjoyed it. It made me into the two face fan i am today. Batdan you said something i agree with completely. Loeb failed in giving the subtle hints of who killed roger rabbit, er...the victim i mean. BUT i still loved the story and the art even with the killer being Gilda.

JOKERFC i'll be waiting for those figures too. Especially ol' 2face. They look great.

[beyondreal]

both books i believe are great and fantasitc stories.

hush holds a special place in my heart and it is forever and probably weill be the book that i think of whenever i think batman.

[gotham95]

I love both stories.

Long Halloween
In my opinion one of the greatest Batman stories. I loved the story and plot twists.

Hush
I think Hush was so hyped that they couldn't just close it with all questions answered. I like how it ended. The story closed but also left you guessing on some things or leave it to your imagination. Kind of like The Matrix Trilogy. It ended and you knew what happened but the how was left dangling.

[Arkham16]

Gahh...Gotham95 please don't compare masterpieces of batman to mediocre thing like Matrix. I'm sorry i just have a bad history/experience with the matrix movies so i'm a little sensitive with matrix comparisons. I know i probably made some enemies for this post and will probably get a smite. SO in advance sorry for any offense taken by matrix fans that i may have caused.

Batdan, i was thinking about this last night after i made a post. Both story had their flaws when it came to making a proper mystery (i.e. clues to the killer) but we must remember that Loeb made compelling stories and that he specializes in writing comic books not mysteries. But to me, for your bravery in speaking out against the two stories Batdan i award you an exalt.


UPDATE! For some reason i cannot find the exalt, smite buttons. SO i'll exalt ya soon Batdan.

[Batdan]

Well, thanks Arkham. I'll exalt you right back because you're in Kansas, which is where my wife is from and because I like your points.

Anyway, I do say this about the mystery/comic book angle: Batman is a detective and on those grounds, I think a writer who is setting out to keep the reader guessing owes it to them to give hints to the solution.

Nevertheless, I will add this:

I do prefer Hush to Long Halloween because I think Jim Lee's artwork belongs in the Batpantheon with Kane, Infantino, Adams, Rogers, Miller and Mazzucchelli. He's that good.

Sale, on the other hand, I'm not so crazy about. I was never a fan of the steroidal look. Lee's Batman is cut like a rock but he's not musclebound.

Still, Arkham, thanks for the boost. Mighty cool of you.

[HUSH]

arkham16 said:

Gahh...Gotham95 please don't compare masterpieces of batman to mediocre thing like Matrix. I'm sorry i just have a bad history/experience with the matrix movies so i'm a little sensitive with matrix comparisons. I know i probably made some enemies for this post and will probably get a smite. SO in advance sorry for any offense taken by matrix fans that i may have caused.

Batdan, i was thinking about this last night after i made a post. Both story had their flaws when it came to making a proper mystery (i.e. clues to the killer) but we must remember that Loeb made compelling stories and that he specializes in writing comic books not mysteries. But to me, for your bravery in speaking out against the two stories Batdan i award you an exalt.


UPDATE! For some reason i cannot find the exalt, smite buttons. SO i'll exalt ya soon Batdan.

I know I wouldn't smite you for your opinion, whether I agree or not. In fact, here's an exalt for having the decency to realize some might be offended and apologize for that.

[J-Man]

[shadow=purple,left,300]Gotham 95's got a point about Hush. I have yet to read it, but I knew everything that happened regardless, since it was such a popular story line and the most talked about on any Batman forum for a good year or so. They probably closed it that way in order to make way for a sequel. But, without having read it, I can't decide if it's overrated or not.

Having read The Long Halloween, though, I don't think that it's overrated. I think it's one of the best Batman stories to date. I loved the art, too.[/shadow]

[Arkham16]

bane said:

arkham16 said:

Gahh...Gotham95 please don't compare masterpieces of batman to mediocre thing like Matrix. I'm sorry i just have a bad history/experience with the matrix movies so i'm a little sensitive with matrix comparisons. I know i probably made some enemies for this post and will probably get a smite. SO in advance sorry for any offense taken by matrix fans that i may have caused.

Batdan, i was thinking about this last night after i made a post. Both story had their flaws when it came to making a proper mystery (i.e. clues to the killer) but we must remember that Loeb made compelling stories and that he specializes in writing comic books not mysteries. But to me, for your bravery in speaking out against the two stories Batdan i award you an exalt.


UPDATE! For some reason i cannot find the exalt, smite buttons. SO i'll exalt ya soon Batdan.

I know I wouldn't smite you for your opinion, whether I agree or not. In fact, here's an exalt for having the decency to realize some might be offended and apologize for that.

Hey thanks, i was sure i was going to be smited to death for that one.

Batdan i agree with putting Jim Lee up there with the other greats of the bat-verse. Tim Sale's style is different but i still like it for that reason. His is much more stylistic which makes for a surreal darker story. Lee is more symbolic. There's barely a pose of bats done by lee that isn't symbolic. Tho i was let down by Lee on the superman story arc, he just didn't seem to have the greatness he had on Batman. Maybe it was the story and writer that changed him. His supes was not nearly as symbolic as his batman.

[gotham95]

arkham16 said:

UPDATE! For some reason i cannot find the exalt, smite buttons. SO i'll exalt ya soon Batdan.

[shadow=blue,left,300]That would be because you recently Smited or exalted someone within that last hour. You can only smite/exalt one per hour. [/shadow]

[Arkham16]

Thank you Gotham95, that explains so much. Exalt for you!

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

In my opinion, both stories were good as a fun romp, but Hush is nothing more. The Long Hallowe'en is far better, but even it has its problems.

I loved Jim Lee's gorgeous artwork in Hush, but it's the only reason I can see for its inclusion on the list of 'classics' (well, that and a cool DC Direct line, with a couple of brown-nosed exceptions).

The Catwoman/Batman relationship has been building for a long time, but as this arc proved, it's FAR more interesting when the two are just flirting, but are kept on opposite sides of the law. In fact, their romance was treated rather poorly, as a small side plot that didn't add anything and eventually just imploded in a positively horrendous final page (which made NO sense to me, and was never built on again).

When Bats and Miss Kitty are toying with each other as they go out on their escapades, the tension between the two forms GREAT stories. Take away the boundary between them and stick 'em together romantically, and it's just not as much fun.

Next is the trouble with Harvey Dent. Two Face is one of the best villains out there (DEFINITELY in the top four), and for the first time in comic continuity, Jeph Loeb gave us a great, detailed, play-by-play backstory for him, then, stupidly, whisked the character away for no reason whatsoever.

Healed Harvey just isn't as cool, and no matter what another writer will do with him, the stories will never be as good as a romp with Two Face. True, a lot of the character's stories were played out, but it's still stupid to think after all those years in Arkham a little (okay, a lot of) plastic surgery would cure the poor guy's insanity. What about his history of abuse? What about Gilda's secret? These issues should to be brought up in bringing Harvey back, particularly the latter since it was Loeb's addition in the first place, but instead we're offered a few lame cameos that, again, add NOTHING BUT A RED HERRING.

Memo to DC: Don't hugely screw around with a classic character unless you're REALLY going somewhere with them.

Now Harv's off in lousy comic book limbo, until the lousy GK writers decide if he's the 'real' Hush or not. Yargh.

On that note, Hush's identity was a real let-down, and even though it's been redone, it still bugs me a lot. First off, Elliot was the prime candidate from the beginning (he didn't exactly add anything else to the story). However, worse than this is the open-endedness that the story left. It was pretty clear that Hush's plan was not completely played out, which means that all of the buildup was for absolutely nothing.

The entire focus of the series was the indentity of this nutjob (it sure wasn't the Bruce/Selina relationship)- to not prove it in a conclusive manner means that, essentially, the book itself failed what it intended to accomplish.

I realize this came off as scathing, but I have lots of good things to say, too. Again, Mr. Lee's characters were all positively brilliant looking, and the Poison Ivy/Superman plot remains the highlight of the book (mostly because it still boasts Bruce and Selina's flirtations and stands on its own from the nonsense of the second volume).

However, the most acclaimed series since...well, the Long Hallowe'en, is a real mess of a story, with no real conclusion or resolution (aside from the fun Riddler scene, which worked moderately well). The first half is great, but when the whole 'Hush/Todd/Dent' angle appears, the story falls completely flat. It was a vehicle to get Jim Lee to play around with everyone's favourite Bat-villains (except TWO-FACE, that is), but I believe that Loeb really copped out on the ending.

The second half was engaging the first time, but, when reviewed again, doesn't make a helluva lot of sense, nor does it have any real direction, jumping around wildly. It takes everything that was weak about the Long Hallowe'en and exemplifies them. The book is a fun read, with awesome art, but it's by no means a classic.

The Long Hallowe'en, on the other hand, I loved...I'll do a more in-depth look at what worked and what didn't some time later. I wouldn't call it a 'classic' either, but it's certainly a good story (on that note, I don't know why 'Dark Victory' doesn't get more acclaim- it's just as good as TLH, and better than Hush...).

[Batdan]

disgruntledgremlin said:

In my opinion, both stories were good as a fun romp, but Hush is nothing more. The Long Hallowe'en is far better, but even it has its problems.

I loved Jim Lee's gorgeous artwork in Hush, but it's the only reason I can see for its inclusion on the list of 'classics' (well, that and a cool DC Direct line, with a couple of brown-nosed exceptions).

The Catwoman/Batman relationship has been building for a long time, but as this arc proved, it's FAR more interesting when the two are just flirting, but are kept on opposite sides of the law. In fact, their romance was treated rather poorly, as a small side plot that didn't add anything and eventually just imploded in a positively horrendous final page (which made NO sense to me, and was never built on again).

When Bats and Miss Kitty are toying with each other as they go out on their escapades, the tension between the two forms GREAT stories. Take away the boundary between them and stick 'em together romantically, and it's just not as much fun.

Next is the trouble with Harvey Dent. Two Face is one of the best villains out there (DEFINITELY in the top four), and for the first time in comic continuity, Jeph Loeb gave us a great, detailed, play-by-play backstory for him, then, stupidly, whisked the character away for no reason whatsoever.

Healed Harvey just isn't as cool, and no matter what another writer will do with him, the stories will never be as good as a romp with Two Face. True, a lot of the character's stories were played out, but it's still stupid to think after all those years in Arkham a little (okay, a lot of) plastic surgery would cure the poor guy's insanity. What about his history of abuse? What about Gilda's secret? These issues should to be brought up in bringing Harvey back, particularly the latter since it was Loeb's addition in the first place, but instead we're offered a few lame cameos that, again, add NOTHING BUT A RED HERRING.

Memo to DC: Don't hugely screw around with a classic character unless you're REALLY going somewhere with them.

Now Harv's off in lousy comic book limbo, until the lousy GK writers decide if he's the 'real' Hush or not. Yargh.

On that note, Hush's identity was a real let-down, and even though it's been redone, it still bugs me a lot. First off, Elliot was the prime candidate from the beginning (he didn't exactly add anything else to the story). However, worse than this is the open-endedness that the story left. It was pretty clear that Hush's plan was not completely played out, which means that all of the buildup was for absolutely nothing.

The entire focus of the series was the indentity of this nutjob (it sure wasn't the Bruce/Selina relationship)- to not prove it in a conclusive manner means that, essentially, the book itself failed what it intended to accomplish.

I realize this came off as scathing, but I have lots of good things to say, too. Again, Mr. Lee's characters were all positively brilliant looking, and the Poison Ivy/Superman plot remains the highlight of the book (mostly because it still boasts Bruce and Selina's flirtations and stands on its own from the nonsense of the second volume).

However, the most acclaimed series since...well, the Long Hallowe'en, is a real mess of a story, with no real conclusion or resolution (aside from the fun Riddler scene, which worked moderately well). The first half is great, but when the whole 'Hush/Todd/Dent' angle appears, the story falls completely flat. It was a vehicle to get Jim Lee to play around with everyone's favourite Bat-villains (except TWO-FACE, that is), but I believe that Loeb really copped out on the ending.

The second half was engaging the first time, but, when reviewed again, doesn't make a helluva lot of sense, nor does it have any real direction, jumping around wildly. It takes everything that was weak about the Long Hallowe'en and exemplifies them. The book is a fun read, with awesome art, but it's by no means a classic.

The Long Hallowe'en, on the other hand, I loved...I'll do a more in-depth look at what worked and what didn't some time later. I wouldn't call it a 'classic' either, but it's certainly a good story (on that note, I don't know why 'Dark Victory' doesn't get more acclaim- it's just as good as TLH, and better than Hush...).

Wow. That's exactly what I've been saying. Bravo to you!

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

Thanks, Batdan. Nice to see as a non-Hush-fan I'm in good company : )
(exalts)

As for the Long Hallowe'en, here's what I thought didn't work...
-Not finding Alberto Falcone's body. I know, the coroner's discover had to be cut for page constraints, but the coroner's death seemed tacked on without it, and made the result overly obvious.
-Poison Ivy's characterization. I can buy the 'silent witch' action, but I don't see her as either a team player or someone who would be stupid enough to keep Bruce Wayne under her control for over a month and not realize he was Batman.
-On that note, the biggest weakness is the month-to-month timing. Although it is a big part of the story's appeal, it's hard to believe Ivy could've kept Bruce under wraps for months without Selina, Lucius, Alfred, Gordon or Harvey figuring that Bats and Bruce had vanished between Valentine's Day and St. Patrick's day. There were some other timing problems, too, but that stands out as the most drastic.
-The villain team-up at the end, which served no significance, adding nothing to the story but extra pages. This badly needed a better explanation, as I still don't have a clue why it had to happen.
-Tim Sale's Catwoman. While his Selina is gorgeous, I thought Miss Kitty's head piece was a little...ludicrous. Not really anyone's fault, since it probably had to match up with the Year One version.
-Villain continuity. Scarecrow was great, but no one but Jeph Loeb writes him this way, making him out of character. Also, his Year One story from an old annual established that Two Face came BEFORE him. Sale's Ivy looked very cool, but why were her plants so powerful so early in her career? Again, no one but Loeb/Sale draws her this way, so the continuity cop has to give them a ticket.

I actually loved everything else about this eerie tale. Sure, some appearances by the rogues didn't serve much significance, but since it was set over a year, it was believable, and they would all be tied together in the sequel. As for the Gilda ending, I think this was exactly how a good twist should have been done- a tragic little addition that was totally unexpected, but was hinted at (the gun found in the Dent's basement), and although it's not without its problems (Gilda was supposed to be hospitalized on one of the dates, wasn't she?), it adds a lot more to the story as well.
The fact that Harv discovered that his wife was Holiday just before becoming Two Face adds another dimension to the character's madness, and is just as much a defining factor in the character as his eventual disfigurement. Bravo!
Also, seeing Batman, Gordon and Dent working together in the early years was a real treat. VERY enjoyable issues, in my opinion...but still not 'classics.'

[Arkham16]

Wow...do i hear an exalt coming? I think so...

[vishman007]

I enjoyed both stories, but Hush is extremely overrated. After reading it for a year, the terrible ending was a huge letdown. Not finding out the identity of Hush and the riddler being behind it all were both unsatisfactory. Jim Lee's art was the huge draw to it. Long Halloween, while not the greatest written story, was much better and I love Sale's art. But I think I may like Dark Victory just a bit more, maybe because of Robin being in it.

[iamthenight]

I just finished The Long Halloween. I thought it was great up until Alberto reveals himself as Holiday. The point was already made about his body never showing up, and I think the whole Gilda aspect was way too forced. Question: Is Haunted Knight worth the read? I've heard mixed opinions.

[JokerFC]

iamthenight said:

I. Question: Is Haunted Knight worth the read? I've heard mixed opinions.

IMO yes it is worth the read,if you dont like it then you can at least say why-yknow?

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

As I said before, DON'T BUY THE COLLECTION. The individual issues themselves were much cheaper to get up here. A back issue bin, or a graphic novel shelf should probably yield them with a bit of hunting. Personally, I thought they were some of Loeb's best- no crappy endings/ridiculosity and no huge continuity gaps. Give 'em a shot!

While we're on the topic, I'd like to voice my sole complaint about Dark Victory- the ending. How in the hell could a brand new Robin incapacitate Mr. Freeze AND Poison Ivy with nothing more than a slingshot? Okay, if they were the MOVIE villains, I could see it but, geez...

[dienekes96]

Frankly, I'm not sure how they are rated. I think modern comic readers consider TLH as groundbreaking and brilliant, and I Know Hush has it's detractors and lovers as well.

I'll start with Hush. I just hopped back into comics, but did buy Hush a while back just to read it (in the mini "please give us money" HC form, which was all that was available). I am a Jim Lee fan from the very early 90's, so it was fun to see his art again, especially on a character I loved. But Hush underwhelmed me. I'll gladly recommend it for the art, if you like Lee's sensibilities, but the story has been done, and done better numerous times. I can't help but read some of the more brutal critics and agree with their assessment of the story. Not much subtlety, way too much TELLING and not SHOWING, and a ham-fisted end that reminded me of Kevin Smith's run on Daredevil (with Mysterio). But the art saves it.

TLH is quite a bit better. The last major Batstory I read (and collected) before my LONG sabbatical from comics. Upon full scrutiny, it doesn't hold up quite as well as the initial blush, but it really does work. I had collected the Halloween specials the previous years (collected in Haunted Knight), and found them all pretty good. They don't meander nearly as much as Loeb's epic tales.

I'd recommend both for the art. But they occupy a rung with Knightfall, Year 2, and some of the average LOTDK stuff. Well below Year One, TKJ, Son of the Demon, and the like.

In short, TLH sort of transcends the comic book aspect of the story. Hush does not.

Take care,
Chuck

[marvewashere]

neither are overratted in my opinion. loeb is an exelant mystery/detective story writter

[Disgruntled Gremlin]

dienekes96- I feel a hero coming on. Hurray for brutality!

[greg]

i just finished Hush, and it was a lot different than i thought. the ending didn't really solve much, and i didn't like the 'new' Harvey Dent. i have a feeling it won't last. *don't spoil stuff, i have only read as far as Batman 619!!* i overall liked the story because it had all the elements of good Bat tale. nothing jaw dropping, but overall a good read. and the artwork is awesome. not on the same level as NML, Killing Joke, Year One. those are about all i have read so far anyway. ;D