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Post by Batdan on May 30, 2005 15:51:50 GMT -5
Ok, folks, debate time.
In my book there are only four truly A-list batvillains: Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and Two-Face. They've all stood the test of time and have had the greatest overall impact on batlore.
But I'd like to see how you guys rate the others? Who is on your B-list? Your C-list? Who is overrated? Who is underrated?
I'll start:
A-list
Joker
Penguin
Catwoman
Two-Face
B-list
Riddler
Mr. Freeze
Ra's al Ghul
Scarecrow
Poison Ivy
C-list
Clayface (classic Matt Hagen)
Man-Bat
Deadshot (I think he's underrated, though)
Hugo Strange (also underrated)
Harley Quinn
Bane
Z-list
Ventriloquist
Mad Hatter
Maxie Zeus
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Post by Batdan on May 30, 2005 17:27:43 GMT -5
That said, in the right hands, any of the long standing villains can be great if written well. Just a shame not all have been done justice consistently.Boy, you said it. In fact, you make a lot of excellent points. Personally, I'm not a big Penguin fan either and am not really sure why he's endured for so long, though I have a theory or two. For me, my ideal Batuniverse involves villains who are humans with psychological issues, as you say. I can handle some of the "powered" villains but it's gotta be handled just the right way. Batman should inhabit a world like ours, only slightly askew. When he veers off into sci fi, I start to lose interest. |
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Post by batman1973 on Jun 1, 2005 18:32:10 GMT -5
I believe that The Batman will be keeping his eyes on The Joker(of course) but also his squeeze Harley(She can prove to be most unpredicatble, especially when she gets with my next choice) Poison Ivy, and Scarecrow.
I agree that the Penguin is over-rated. Along those lines, Riddler, and Two Face as well.
Catwoman is a force unto herself. She easily plays both heroine and villan with ease, sometimes blending both with cat-like grace.
Mr.Freeze I find a good strong character, however, I feel that he is done serious injustice in the new "The Batman" cartoons. In the BTAS series and even in Batman:Beyond, you see that Victor Fries can be merciful.(I think that this was shown best in Batman:Sub Zero)
And under rated group that I would like to see more back story on is The Royal Flush gang. Not just for Batman, but even Batman:Beyond. I think this group has potential, if delt(ok, bad joke) with properly
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Post by Batdan on Jun 1, 2005 19:30:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I always found the Royal Flush Gang intriguing, too.
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Texlexor
Legions of Gotham Police Officer
Posts: 155
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Post by Texlexor on Jun 1, 2005 20:30:00 GMT -5
OK.. here's my list.. A to Z..  A:Joker, Two-Face, Ra's al Ghul B:Scarecrow, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Catwoman, Bane, Hush C:Riddler (overrated), Hugo Strange, Ventriloquist, Killer Croc, Clayface 3; Preston Payne, Lady Shiva, Deadshot D:Poison Ivy (overrated), Firefly, Anarchy, Man-Bat ZHarley Quinn (never been a fan), Maxie Zeus, Clayface 1 & 2, Egghead, King Tut... ;D |
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Post by JokerFC on Jun 1, 2005 21:43:53 GMT -5
 Heres mine Exempt from Classicfication-JOKER-no villian is fit to lick his spats-Period A -LIST Two face Scarecrow Bane Ras Al Ghul Hush B-LIST Penguin Riddler Mr Freeze Black Mask Poison Ivy C-LIST Clayface Mad Hatter Ventriloquist Catwoman-not the heavy hitter she was Zsasz and after that we are into mediocrity so Ill save those poor souls the embarrassment of classification 
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Jun 2, 2005 0:48:14 GMT -5
Overrated:
Penguin and Riddler. These guys aren't NEARLY as interesting as the other villainous characters, and are really only considered 'big timers' because of Frank Gorshin and Burgess Meredith. Penguin makes a nice foil as the sleazy nightclub owner/ secret gangster, and a good Riddler storyline comes along every once in a while, but I just don't think either have what it takes to ever seriously take on the Batman.
Of course, Hush has to take the cake. He's a guy in bandages trying to destroy Batman for reasons that we neither understand, nor care about after all this drawn-out identity garbage. The Hush saga was a lot of fun because it managed to show us a bunch of our fave villains in an engaging plot with great art that kept us guessing. When it ended, the bandaged man should've gone with it. As he stands now, he's a carbon copy of Bane, with the same development problems, but less of a threat.
Underrated:
Anarky is perhaps the most interesting Bat-foil DC's thrown at us since Ras Al Ghul. Why is this guy not getting some more page time? Tons of untapped potential for the young anti-hero.
I think Ventriloquist/Scarface has always had a very creepy appeal to him- the split personality deal is extremely well done in the right hands, and...well...c'mon, he's a mobster dummy!
The Mad Hatter is a villain that never seems to be quite the same from issue to issue. However, when written as the creepy, delusional schizophrenic, he's a surprisingly disturbing character.
Mr. Zsasz is creepy, psychologically interesting, and is just plain a lot of fun...why isn't he featured more often!?
Tier One Villains:
The Joker is, of course, the cream of the crop. No matter how poorly he's written in current continuity, he and Batman are inseperable.
Two Face is one of the most dangerous villains to Batman, simply because they were once friends. Again, current continuity has ruined him (for the sake of a lousy red herring at that!), but when he's written well, he's one of the best.
Ras Al Ghul is the biggest threat to Batman, because he's after more than Gotham City- he wants the world! And no hero is complete without a genocidal counterpart! Although I'm satisfied with his latest death scenario, he'll surely be back, and somehow the energizer bunny syndrome never really seems to get old.
Catwoman will always be near the top, simply because she's THE classic femme fatale. As much of a media figure as Batman is, she may be playing the heroine for now, but she'll always be a top-notch enemy for Bats.
Tier Two Villains
Poison Ivy is a personal favourite, and although she may not have as many roots in the Bat mythology, she's become crucial to the Bat Universe. She's definitely the most powerful enemy on the list- not much you can't do when you control plants, not to mention the toxic touch. If writers could find a way for her to be defeated other than a swift kick of a simple set of hand cuffs, she'd be in tier one, but for now, she's just on the edge.
Bane is here, simply because he broke the Batman. That's good enough for me.
Mr. Freeze's revamped origin makes him an immediate candidate for a high status spot, and those ice weapons give him some tools that can actually (shock) pose a threat.
Scarecrow parallels Batman nicely, and he's one character you can always count on to stir up some chaotic fun.
There you have it!
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Post by anthonywayne on Jun 2, 2005 14:40:07 GMT -5
Tier One Villains:
The Joker is, of course, the cream of the crop. No matter how poorly he's written in current continuity, he and Batman are inseperable.
Two Face is one of the most dangerous villains to Batman, simply because they were once friends. Again, current continuity has ruined him (for the sake of a lousy red herring at that!), but when he's written well, he's one of the best.
Ras Al Ghul is the biggest threat to Batman, because he's after more than Gotham City- he wants the world! And no hero is complete without a genocidal counterpart! Although I'm satisfied with his latest death scenario, he'll surely be back, and somehow the energizer bunny syndrome never really seems to get old.
Catwoman will always be near the top, simply because she's THE classic femme fatale. As much of a media figure as Batman is, she may be playing the heroine for now, but she'll always be a top-notch enemy for Bats.
I agree on the Joker - and the direction they're taking with him so belies his status in the rogue's gallery - I hope this changes soon. |
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Post by Batdan on Jun 2, 2005 21:55:21 GMT -5
If I could exalt you all, I would. Some great points here:
Texlexor, I think you need to add Bookworm to that Z list.
Gremlin, I agree with you on the Gorshin/Meredith angle as to why the Riddler and Penguin endure.
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Post by Disgruntled Gremlin on Jun 3, 2005 0:18:58 GMT -5
Thanks : )
I think it's worth noting that of the 'top tier' rogues galleries (SPOILERS AFTER THE HARLEY)
Miss Kitty's been a goody-two shoes since the 90's which, surprisingly, fit her very nicely. However, in the last 3 or so years, the Gotham rogues have been dealt horrible fates...
The Joker has been dealt with pretty horribly as of late, and the most recent storylines seem to be unnecessarily undermining some of the things that make the character #1.
Ras Al Ghul is dead. I'm sure he'll bounce back as usual, but still dead, for the moment.
Two Face disappeared into oblivion for no reason whatsoever, and hasn't been seen or mentioned since.
I don't actually have a clue what's going on with the Riddler right now, but I'm getting the impression he's toast.
Poison Ivy is dead, following possibly the most contrived, amatearish, and just plain stupid story arc she's ever been featured in.
The Scarecrow is a giant monster, which is, sadly, the least objectionable change.
I could go on and on- Talia's crazy, Killer Moth is...well, a Killer Moth, etc. etc. I enjoy Black Mask and some newer villains (NOT YOU, JASON TODD!), but too many new writers just have NO respect for the classics. This coming from a 16 year old kid, I'd say DC's in trouble.
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zorro
Legions Of Gothamite
Posts: 88
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Post by zorro on Jun 3, 2005 21:16:20 GMT -5
I think an underated villan would be Maxie Zues. We haven't heard him in a while but when he ran into Batman he always thought he could act like a god. He had a villan under his wing too, for a short time. Hydra, a follower of Maxie. Catwoman I could count now as not a villan at all, just a hero doing things the hard was in Gotham City.
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Post by Batdan on Jun 4, 2005 17:47:23 GMT -5
I think an underated villan would be Maxie Zues. We haven't heard him in a while but when he ran into Batman he always thought he could act like a god. He had a villan under his wing too, for a short time. Hydra, a follower of Maxie. Catwoman I could count now as not a villan at all, just a hero doing things the hard was in Gotham City. Maxie Zeus always left me cold. Way too gimmicky for my tastes. |
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Post by alterego on Jun 7, 2005 17:09:59 GMT -5
Joker is on top of the list, but Penguin was my favourite as a kid. I like the way he's being portrayed now as a seedy nightclub owner.
I like Anarchy, but I also like the Ventriloquist. In recent years the best of the crop have been Deadshot and Zeiss, Red Hood, and of course, Hush. However we do need more new villains too.
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Post by Batlaw on Jun 7, 2005 17:18:59 GMT -5
Hmmmm... underrated and or underused? I vote Bane!, Croc, Prometheus!, KGBeast, and I'll throw in Firefly and Deadshot (and despite recent ID Crisis stuff, Deathstroke as a "Bat Villain).
Overrated and or over exposed (at least recently) would be Penguin and Riddler IMO
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Post by Batdan on Jun 10, 2005 20:08:10 GMT -5
... Penguin was my favourite as a kid. I like the way he's being portrayed now as a seedy nightclub owner. To me, that's the best way of handling him. It actually fits. |
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Post by jlavaia on Jun 10, 2005 20:16:33 GMT -5
Zsasz could be B-list if a good writer would just step up, use him, and write him properly.
THE MOST UNDERRATED BAT VILLAIN IS DEFINETLY:
Cornelius Stirk
I can't fathom how he's not seen anymore. he is a complete psychotic cannibal. forget all of that, Alan Grant created him. i guess other writers are afraid they'll screw up the character or something. he scares people to death and then eats their hearts because he believes he'll die if he doesn't get the nutrients that the fear brings to the heart. you cant get much sicker than that.
second to him is Nocturna. she needs to be brought back, especially with Jason back. and she knows who Batman is. i personally thought the stories involving her and Night-Thief were great.
there are quite a few underrated characters, KGBeast, Lock-Up, Lady Vic (she needs to come back to Gotham), Nyssa needs to be in at least another issue, Claything, and Cassius, and many others.
i really don't think any Bat villain is overrated, just some are alittle over used, leaving most under used and forgotten. bring a few back for at least one arc. look at how good an arc "the misfits" was. Alan Grant and Tim Sale doing an arc about Killer Moth, Calender Man, and Catman. and its one of the best Batman stories of all time.
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Post by JokerFC on Jun 10, 2005 20:19:06 GMT -5
got to agree on the KGBeast he is a great villain and very underrated IMO
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Post by J-Man on Jun 10, 2005 21:03:59 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300]I've always found Firefly and Zsasz to be underrated. They could both obtain A-List status if the writers would use them more and integrate some good storytelling in the mix.
I've always thought that Killer Croc was overrated, though. He's never struck me as a truly tragic villain, and I've never seen him played out that way.
Joker, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze (defined by B:TAS) and Scarecrow will always remain as classics imo. I'd be more inclined to pick up an issue with Scarecrow in it if he wasn't a monster, though.[/shadow]
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Post by Batdan on Jun 12, 2005 16:43:45 GMT -5
[shadow=purple,left,300] I'd be more inclined to pick up an issue with Scarecrow in it if he wasn't a monster, though.[/shadow] Then you should pick up Scarecrow Year One. It's very good. |
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Post by J-Man on Jun 12, 2005 20:58:46 GMT -5
Then you should pick up Scarecrow Year One. It's very good. |
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Post by Arkham16 on Jun 12, 2005 21:24:49 GMT -5
Underated-- Mr. Zsasz, Ivy, Solomon Grundy (he's a zombie f'r crying out loud and as infamous of a myth as bats), Ra's, Scarface, Mad Hatter (he's a disturbed pedifile, that strikes a chord with anybody)
Overrated-- The Penguin, Riddler, and Hush. I like Riddler and Hush but they're not being handled well. Black Mask (i like how sadistic he is and his power over the city but he's way over rated)
Some mistreated classics. Joker, Two face, Ivy, Bane (speaking of which, where is he?), Ra's, and so many others.
A--Joker, Two face, Catwoman, Penguin (who i dispise), Black mask (he's got gotham by the "cajones" so to speak)
B--Ivy, Ra's, Bane, Scarecrow (the beast screwed him over tho. Otherwise a great character), Mad Hatter
C--Riddler, Clayfaces, Scarface
D--Firefly, Catman
I haven't put all villians but it's a difficult task for me to think of. A person i didn't put in that is a major villian in my opinion is Carmine "the Roman" Falcone. He had a large amount of impact on Bats but is forgotten. He's also underrated. He was the original villian of Gotham.
The law enforcement of gotham is also a villian not commonly thought of. They've posed a threat to bats time and again.
Another underated villian is bats own emotions. His guilt has posed an obstacle more than once.
The most underrated villian is contuity and writing of Batman Comics. How cruel they have been on occasions.
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