Joker HC

[Dorian Mimes]

[glow=red,2,300]THIS IS A RANT! Very rantish...[/glow]

Oh BTW, I haven't looked at any scans or anything i don't want to ruin it for myself >_>



Written by Brian Azzarello; Art by Lee Bermejo and Mick Gray; Cover by Lee Bermejo

In the all-new, hardcover original graphic novel JOKER, writer Brian Azzarello (100 BULLETS) and artist Lee Bermejo (HELLBLAZER covers) – the creative team behind the acclaimed miniseries LEX LUTHOR: MAN OF STEEL – show an even darker and more disturbing side to the most dangerous man in Gotham: The Joker.

After yet another stint in Arkham Asylum, The Joker finds "his city" divided among mobsters and costumed villains. Not content to settle for a piece of the pie, The Joker vows to take back the whole damn enchilada by any means necessary. Look for appearances by a slew of Gotham's most wanted, including gritty takes on Two-Face, Riddler, Killer Croc, Penguin, Harley Quinn and even Batman!

Not since THE KILLING JOKE have you seen such a powerful tale of The Joker – you won't want to miss this one!


Show an even DARKER and more DISTURBING side to the most dangerous man in Gotham? CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THAT EVEN MEANS?!?! Hasn't he done ENOUGH already to prove himself to be already dark and demented as is? Crippling of Batgirl, death of Jason Todd, where he went wacko for a couple of days because he thought he was going to die, the alteration of the entire universe thanks to Mr.Mxyzptlk, the laughing fish, the five way revenge, the birthday party??!!?? Isn't that ENOUGH demented things to understand already that he is DARK AND DEMENTED?! He doesn't NNEEEDDD scars, raggedy clothes, or less circus gimmicks to make him look grimer, scarier, "bad butt" because HE IS NOT GRIM - and he is scary and he is bad butt! We must understand that Joker is the antithesis of Batman - THEY ARE EXACT POLARS ( i mean they share things as well but - for the most parts extreme opposites), two sides of teh same coin destined to never meet.Where Batman is Grim, Joker is Happy. THAT'S THE WAY IT HAS BEEN AND THATS THE WAY IT NEEDS TO STAY BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY PEOPLE LIKE IT! To bring Joker down to that, gothic stage is, depressing, that's not HIM, thats a guy that is TRYING to be him for Halloween. And don't give me that, "oh well he has no personality soo..." BECAUSE HE DOES, his unpredictable nature IS HIS PERSONALITY, along with him clown gimmicks and cleanliness and showmanship (which all in turns goes in for his egotistical nature)!

"Not since THE KILLING JOKE have you seen such a powerful tale of The Joker" - and what does THAT mean either?!? I LOVE The Killing Joke, don't get me wrong, it was beautiful, it was wonderful and magical and everything that could be expected of Alan Moore. I love that book to death, but we must understand that, this, should not be compared - TKJ was written at a different era of comic books, by a extrememly different writer who himself claimed that TKJ wasn't that big a deal for him. I dislike when publishers and writers claim Joker stories to be as good as TKJ, because, it just can't be compared. They aren't even in the same boat. To be honest, I hate the fact that people love to place their all their eggs into TKJ - "the ultimate Joker story". I don't want people to compare stories because writers will want to try and top it and the fact people put it on a pedestal discourages other writers. It has it's flaws. I don't WANT another TKJ story, I want SOMETHING new! It is an essential Joker novel, NO DOUBT, but you have to read an array of Joker stories to really kinda get a feel for his complex character. (Not to mention the fact that people claim that TKJ Joker-past is canon, no, he CAN NOT have a past, CAN NOT! I like to think Jeannie was just a vision of what COULD'VE happened - one sliver of truth in it, there is some truth in his fiction as well as some fiction in his truth. Again this is another reason why Loeb annoys me, in that Hush series he confirms Joker's Jeannie-past, no, NO, WHY!??! *blows head off*)

Also in Newsrama (link to article: www.newsarama.com/comics/090802-AzzarelloJoker.html)

Brian Azzarello...is definately not being my best-friend here at the moment when it comes to Harley (and this story in general).

BA:Well, Harley Quinn doesn’t speak at all in this book. She’s just kind of there. Will that be the way I do Harley Quinn the next time? Probably not. For this book, she’s more or less his bodyguard.

Again, WTH DOES THIS MEAANN?!?! Harley Quinn NOT SAYING ANYTHING??! Did SOMEONE PULL HER FREAKIN VOCAL CORDS OUT?! For the LOVE OF ALL THAT IS BATMAN WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHATS GOING ON? I FEEL LIKE IM TAKING CRAZY PILLS!! Harley, doesn't shut up, Harley is perky, she is pepped up on SOMETHING how can she POSSIBLY be quiet? What would be the point of her actually being IN that comic book if she says ABSOLUTLY NOTHING??! She's a freakin MIME, a BODYGUARD, OF ALL THINGS! SHE NEEDS TO BE SERIOUSLY FLESHED OUT MORE IN THE DCU! Paul Dini KNEW where he was going with her, thats like his baby, HE KNOWS HER, and now that she's bouncing off of other writers that just "don't get the Joke" she's being scrapped up as being just an obsessive weirdo girl. SHE IS SO MUCH MORE, AND CAN BE SO MUCH MORE! She is not A VICTIM, she is a WILLING PARTICIPANT in this crazy clown abusive relationship. At any time she could've left him, kicked his arse to Kingdom Come (Harley Quinn #1 one-shot is a good example at the end) where she indeed goes running back to him. Stockholm syndrome? Most certainly (to an extent because she's still a willing participant)! But there is definately some acknowledgement to what she is doing, she is not a victim, she knows the risks she is taking with him, in BTAS in Harlequinade, she was going to SHOOT the Joker, SHE IS BALLSY PEOPLE! And in Harley and Ivy, she states she "knows her puddin can be a little rough sometimes...but he loves me...really." and to be honest I think he really does. But thats for anotehr discussion. In conclusion: It is important to emphasise that Harley loves her life of crime and repeatedly fails at attempts to rehabilitate. She thrives on the thrill and the excitement and is frequently shown to be anything but an innocent little angel, having a vicious malicious streak of her own and more than her own cup full of crazy.

All in all...I'm mad...

But I'm hopeful. Because I give the Bat-mythos chances. So many chances.

Even if it sucks bad, well, there goes twenty bucks down the drain and I have something to show all the good boys and girls what makes a bad comic book.

[batman1973]

Never think of it as a waste of money. I felt the same way when the "Hush"And eventual "Red Hood" story lines brought about the return of Jason Todd. As one of those who paid to have Todd killed, imagine my disappointment at his return. The Joker is one of the most interesting of the Bat's Rouges, and I for one will see how it goes.

[Dorian Mimes]

Hence I'm still hopeful, I hope and pray until the day that hardcover is released that maybe perhaps I don't know enough of what's going on to really judge it yet and perhaps maybe the story will be interesting and sophisticated. Perhaps it would open my mind to some new flavor of things.

But these are my initial spoiler free thoughts about it.

And it doesn't look good >_<

By the way, WHAT WAS UP WITH BRINGING JASON TODD BACK?! I really REALLY just don't get that. I don't. He's dead, he's dead. Leave it be.

[batman1973]

*********Spoilers*****************
Recently, I just picked up "Teen Titans: Life and Death", and it somewhat explains how Oliver Queen, Hal Jordan, Jason Todd and others came back. I won't give away all the details, but I will say that Brother Blood had a hand in it.

[jlavaia]

Jason Todd came back due to Superman-Prime punching the reality barrier. its what caused alot of changes. Oliver Queen was brought back by Hal when he was The Spectre and Hal was brought back by Parallax and Ganthet. that particular Titans story takes place during Infinite Crisis. once the Crisis ended we were able to see what changes occured and what changes stuck around and whatnot. Todd's return we found out later then that story what caused it. Queen and Jordan returning was way before and their ways of returning remained unchanged.

[batman1973]

Ah, the whole "Throw an idea at the wall and see what sticks". I did think that the story that was presented in "Life and Death" was a bit "hokey". Gotta say though, I'm kinda getting tired of everyone dying and then comming back. If they're dead, leave em dead.****Spolier Alert**** I mean sheesh, I just read "Wonder Woman:Love and Murder" and guess what? Diana's mom is brought back. Hell, if it wasn't for the artwork (Giggity!) I wouldn't have even finished the story.

[Dorian Mimes]

Oct 26, 2008 9:56:13 GMT -5 batman1973 said:

Gotta say though, I'm kinda getting tired of everyone dying and then comming back. If they're dead, leave em dead.

Egg-sactly! I mean, Todd was dead for years and years and now they want to bring him back? After everyone wanted him dead in the first place?

It just don't make no sense! I WISH KEANI REEVES WAS HERE SO HE COULD SAVE ME FROM THE MATRIX!

[batman1973]

Here's a short list of who I could find in the DCU who "died"(though jlavaia may have a more complete list. He da man when it comes to this stuff)
Hal Jordan-Green Lantern
Oliver Queen-Green Arrow
Ted Kord-Blue Beetle (maybe alive, status unknown)
Donna Troy-Wonder Girl,Wonder Woman, Darkstar, Troia
Jason Todd-Robin II-Red Hood
Stephanie Brown-Spoiler, Robin IV
Joseph Wilson-Jericho
Barry Allen-Flash II
Queen Hippolyta-Queen of the Amazons, Wonder Woman of Earth 2

[jlavaia]

^ there's a whole lot more than that. remember even Superman has "died".

[Dorian Mimes]

Ya but SUPERMAN can come back - he gets that privilage because

1) He's SUPERMAN

2)...well...there is no two it's just he's superman, the guys not even regular comic-geeks know the name of, whose so influential in pop-culture that the adage of "...my kryptonite" came form him. He's just - to big - to go down like that.

But I'm talking about Jason Todd and Spoiler and all those other's who just don't have that kinda title that simply seem to puff back out of no where just for shticks and giggles. And THAATTT annoys me >_<

[batman1973]

jlavaia and I have discussed this before, and the one conclusion that we drew is that no one stays dead in the comic universe. Superman, as I understand, was killed as a "last respect" on the real life passing away of one of his creators. Since then, I think that characters are killed off to boost sagging sales. Death sells. The more sensational the character, the better the ratings. Jason Todd's death was a huge push for the Batman franchise. Also, death serves a either a "mini cont. reboot" or a "full out cont. reboot", depending on who dies. I guess when we keep it in perspective that these are works of fiction and not bound by the laws of reality, anything goes.

[batman1973]

BTW, Dorian, didn't mean to hi-jack the this post and take it in a different direction. I was just trying to convey that don't give up hope just yet. However, I myself have always been troubled byt the death and re-apperance of characters, so thank you for allowing me to "vent" a little.

[Dorian Mimes]

No problem bro! Because this thread is a snowball heading down to hell because I just picked up and read JOKER HC

And...

Let's just say - I feel like this right now

And I feel like hurting some very nice people...

But I can't about it right now because, well, Im royally

[glow=red,2,300]mad![/glow]

[Dorian Mimes]

*takes deep breath*

Sorry for hte very negative initial reaction to the comic - just initially thats how I felt - till I calmed down and re-read as an ELSEWORLDS comic where then I calmed down and I was able to somewhat enjoy and immerse myself in it.

I don't...think it's all that baadd...but...I think it could've been WAY better. WAY WAY better.

[Dorian Mimes]

INCREDIBLE SPOILERS UP AHEAD! YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!! This is just my thoughts after reading it...

When first tackling this story – and in my first read – I found I really didn’t like it. In fact, I was enraged with the fact people would publish such a thing and sell this fodder to us devoted comic fans and call it steak! But I took a deep breath and realized that this was something of a non-canon comic. Just a little sandbox for the writer to just freely roam and do whatever he liked to my beloved Joker without me worrying that this would effect MY Joker as I know him.

With that in mind I re-read the comic with my new insight and found that the comic was really – well – entertaining. But – nothing to get all pumped up for.

The story is short so you don’t tire of it easily, though WHY they would put it in a hardcover completely ELUDES me. The art is very stylish new and fresh and completely engages itself well within the story. The art just fits well – really – it does. There is nothing bad I can say about the art because I liked it and it made sense and everything else and a bag of potato chips!

However, like I said, the story was – nothing spectacular as many reviewers and spokesmen had tried to make it seem.

Frankly, it’s a gangster/mobster story. It’s violent and bloody but – just not – EXCITING! It doesn’t have that extra humph that most comics involving Batman villains usually have. People have been telling me “OMG! So violent out of the buttzz!!11” and when I read it myself – it was – not that bad. I mean there were points where I cringed because it was pretty intense but on the whole it wasn’t bad. In fact most of the “random” acts of violence weren’t all that random. And when you’re expecting that much violence you’re not at all surprised when you see it.

As for the gangster-ness – very, very typical. I mean, what the Joker wants in the entire story is to get his territory back. Big whoop. Pretty much if you’ve watched, Carlito’s Way or Godfather or even Family Guy – you already KNOW how this story is going to go. What kind of irks me about this is that – what most of the villains in this story want is POWER to make themselves feel COMPLETE or the top-banana or whatever. And I got no problem with Bat-villains going back to their original gangster roots, because ORIGINAL GANGSTERS are what they are. But they have a sort of flare to them as well – they aren’t just your ORDINARY gangsters they are also SUPER VILLAINS. They need a right mixture of both to be fully functional and enjoyable.

And yeah, not so much what the villains of Batman are really about – with just trying to obtain power, though of course theirs is often a pursuit for power too. They just do it in more unique ways.

Johnny Frost, the narrator of the story is also quite lacking in anything really solid. He pretty much aspires to be something like the Joker and in the end finds that – “oops! I don’t!” Not to mention they like to play the cyclical “evil” versus “good” theme. This has been done, nothing new. And the ending, though pretty tame, had one particular part I really enjoyed where the Joker asks why his mask only covers part of his face and leaves his mouth and chin exposed and Batman simply replies, “To mock you.” I thought that was very clever and pretty funny. Batman knows just how to push the Joker’s buttons as the Joker knows how to push his. However, immediately afterwards the Joker blows Frost away, and the two titans duke it out. I don’t find that to be particularly Batman-like for him to do, leave a wounded civilian lying there in his own blood – dying – as he fights Joker. Perhaps Batman thought he was already dead? I’m not sure but, I just thought that was a niggly thing out of character.

Unfortunately, it appears that Azzarello believes that the violence of a GC is what makes it stand out as – DA BOMB. But that’s not the case – and most comic books would prove that. Though this is definitely not your average PG-13 stuff and does contain some pretty UGLY things happening to some characters – it doesn’t make it DA BOMB.
And perhaps it makes it stand out more on a negative note rather than on a positive one.
This story lacks in content and makes it common. Batman is never common – heck I don’t know exactly ANY super villain/hero that can ever be doing something common – but this one really tries to hardest to do that. The violence and "grittiness" are intended to overshadow what is a very generic story. And NO story with the Joker should EVER be generic. Writing a great Joker story takes certain finesse, because while the character is ruthlessly violent, he also has great style.

This Joker, however, is just one really whacked up thug. He’s neurotic, drug-addicted and has some severe self-esteem issues. He appears that he needs to have Gotham in his control because – well – it’s almost like it’s the only thing that defines him as a person. Without that power, with out that stability that he’s the top-dog, then he’s done. He really needs this power to be sure of himself basically. Which is very far from the Joker I know. The Joker I know, is extremely sure of himself, he’s a narcissist and an egotistical bastard. He’d want Gotham in his hand because – one thing it’s power, but that’s not the ENTIRE THING, he’d do it because he’d think it’s RIGHTFULLY his to begin with.
As for the whole drug thing. Well – I don’t think he would NOT take drugs. In fact, I think he’s had a very colorful experience with them. He’s mentioned on some occasions in comics that Scarecrow’s fear toxins actually give him a sort of “buzz”. Not to mention all those meds they give him in Arkham. However, I feel like in this story, he really does OD on these pills. I mean, the guy's an abuser. He's constantly high or stoned. At one point he sits in a chair for literally days, surrounded by pill bottles. When you're doping up that much, synapses start short-circuiting. I believe some of his “insanity” is probably drug induced; he’s got enough pills to kill a rock star ten times over! I mean, he’s GOT to be seeing funky colors all over the place! So I found myself wondering if Joker had simply started life as a gangster and eventually went insane due to the drug abuse. That all the episodes, and the paranoia and the twitching and the recklessness - his insanity was the culmination of many years of poisoning his body.

And yet, there are some points in this comic that show some of glimmer of MY Joker. He messes with people. The shrimp scene for example is quite fun. The way he plays with the name 'Tommy Bang Bang', then blows him away. Looking as though he's about to hold out a hand to shake, then grabs for the shrimp. It’s childish but something very Joker-esque about it as well.
But all things gold cannot stay, because then there was that rape scene. Yes, the Joker goes and rapes Frost’s wife. Now let me get one thing straight here, I don’t believe in TKJ, Joker raped Barbara. Why? Because 1) Moore isn’t stingy with details like that and he would’ve made it perfectly clear that he did and 2) That’s just something the Joker wouldn’t do unless it was necessary and/or extremely funny in his own distorted sense of humor. But the Joker rapes his wife, bluntly, and all because he wanted to teach him to not going around screwing heist up because one little slivers of detail went unnoticed. I’m not at all saying the Joker WOULD NEVER rape someone. I think he would if the opportunity presented itself – and it was THHEE way to go. However, rape is common; it’s something disempowered men do when they can’t get what they want through proper means. Because they are inadequate and sub par, and the Joker does not view himself as inadequate or sub par. He’d find it more pleasurable to twist your mind with fanciful thinking that he’s a swell guy (he is a master manipulator and speaker) and on your own accord sleep with him. They've taken the idea of the Joker and reduced it into… into a common thug. He's made so ordinary.

Could he have been replaced with any other villain and no one could've told the difference?

Why, yes, I do think we could’ve. Just grab someone, dope ‘em up and there ya go!

I mean, the narrator of the story isn’t even very exciting. All he wants is to be like Joker and to be a big guy on campus. And that’s pretty much it. He’s a very disposable and sketchy character, who at the end when he dies I don’t feel very – well – bothered by it. And I really should feel that connection because he’s the one telling the story after all. I should feel very connected but I don’t. They don’t flesh him out enough for me to feel anything really. He hero-worships the Joker to the point there is some rather amusing homoeroticism between them. It got a giggle out of me.
This slavish devotion means that Joker trusts him. I also think Joker trusts him because he's a new face, a new and impressionable face keen to walk in Joker's shadow. Though I have to say it bothered me how much trust the Joker put into Frost. For the fact that he is A NEW FACE, I wouldn’t believe Joker would willingly go around trusting someone so fresh. It just doesn’t sit to well on my boat.

As for the more :realistic” feel to the other characters. Well, I guess it’s fine. It doesn’t make me go “OMG SUCKS!” or “OMG ROCKS!” it’s just kind of there. I liked Croc’s look, it kept in touch with the source material as well as his attitude which already coincides with this kind of Nolanverse story. Pengers, he’s well drawn, but he also coincides well in Nolanverse, as for Nygma, well, I’m not very impressed. I do like the fact they didn’t make him a down right killer, he does seem to be les inclined to do killing but rather would like to play mind games which I find very IN character. However, his look does bother me somewhat, I see him more crisp clean and calculated rather than gritty and grungey. And what they did to Two-Face was just – really – sad. I mean, when he runs to Batman for help from Joker that’s just – chica chica wha? I think Two-Face has the balls to go up againsth te Joker. ESPECIALLY when all the Joker says is that he’s going to kill him. I just, don’t get that, all the rouge villains at one time or another threaten to kill each other but they don’t go running to Batman for help! They’re ballsy and prideful and they think they can take care of everything themselves. I feel like this part was simply rushed, they needed Batman to find out the whereabouts of the Joker ASAP before they ran out of pages. If this is what "realism" is, then I'd rather go without it. Personally, I consider realism to be how compelling and how sophisticated the depiction of a character's personality, motives, urges, needs and feelings are, and not how many grams of coke he can shove up his nose.

Now for Harley. She is silent, as they have said, but I now feel this was because the story was told through Jonny's eyes, and ALL of Jonny's attention is focused on Joker. He's aware of Harley as Joker's lady, but she is peripheral. So I was a little more willingly to let the silence slide on my part. There were points in the novel where she did act a lot like Harley, where he dresses up as a Gorilla, places Joker’s glasses on, and when she skins alive that mobster – and all with a smile! As for that strip scene – well reverse strip scene – I have to say I’m pretty fond of that – putting ON the Harley Quinn outfit was something I could probably see her doing.

Harley as Joker's bodyguard is a role she plays in regularly continuity too, but here it's played up a bit more. It's subversive cos to look at her you'd really just think she's the cute girlfriend with nothing to do. She's fragile looking. Even distracted - until there's a threat, or even anticipation of. And it’s very good to point out that she is a THREAT, in any in-continuity stories many people underestimate her and then are rudely awakened to find she’s a tough cookie. And here – I really get that and for that I’m very pleased.

Funny thing was I thought I was going to get ripped apart by the characterization of their relationship but I’m actually pretty comfy with it. They clearly collaborate in a very personal way and above all the others, even above Jonny, she has his back. No words are exchanged, but none are needed - they're working together.

Not to mention I think she plays a very key role to he neurotic and self-esteem issues. The fact that he’s got a smokin’ lady is one ego point for him. But I believe she acts as his rock. Whenever he has one of those mercurial episodes from being nice guy to bad guy she doesn’t seem surprised or frightened, she’s expected this. I think he needs this. She's a rock to him, his stability.

There is one very emotional scene where the Joker is actually on his knees in front of Harley holding her close and crying. But her face seems, placid, and calm and collective. She understand his fears and random emotional outbursts and MOST importantly she is accepting of his life style and what he is. It is intense and intimate and though probably way to OUT there and way to OBVIOUS for my taste in their relationship – it’s still very powerfully put. I know he could’ve been incredibly high at this moment as there is pills and cocaine everywhere in the room but – it’s still very emotional and it depicts there relationship to be so much more than what is seen.

And it is just me or has this Joker not ONCE hit Harley or even YELLED at her in this story?

I thought that was interesting. Though I do find the berating and the hitting and the abuse to be a very intimate thing in the Joker and Harley relationship it is something new to find that he does all of that to everyone else BUT Harley. Maybe because she is the rock of this relationship, and she appears to be a lot stronger than her man, he’s maybe afraid to lose her? And if that be the case then he needs her lot more than what we think!

So out of all the blandness this book has given me it did great justice to the couple. For those you incredibly oblivious of the real “love” between the two – I suggest you probably read this. It takes out the complicated things about their relationship and displays what it is if were a slightly more – well “natural” kind of mad love. I mean there are elements of abuse and nastiness to them (they both condone each other for being druggies) but on the whole it seems a lot more understanding and such.

The sad thing is I think this story had potential but someone screwed it up for everyone…

[Dorian Mimes]

Okay seriously - this has been bothering me. I've stated my two bits above about JOKER HC. I thought it was entertaining but - I found LOTS OF STUFF that just weren't MY Joker stuff. I understand that it is a Elseworld-sih kind of comic butt - I've just really missing MY Joker atm. And I'm just curious as to WHYY so many people think this is really GOOD. I mean, It's OKAY, but I wouldn't go to say REALLY GOOD!

[svengali1337]

I thought it was good, not great, but still a fun read. I don't recall when Joker rapes his wife though. You brought up some valid points and others are just silly. Like the one about "Don't we already know how demented he is because of Jason and the crippling of barbra.." Thats just stupid to say. Its hard for me to explain but in jokers lifetime I'm sure he did more demented stuff than those things, "JOKER" is just another passage from his life. I thought it was good and i loved how batman came in at the end and the closing senteces... all in all I was proud it add it to my collection.