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Post by lamplighter on May 1, 2007 6:52:24 GMT -5
I just watched Batman Begins again, and I had to express my feelings for the movie now that I have had time to really think about it.
I like that Ra's Al Ghul was included in Batman's origin. I didn't like the fact that Talia was not included. I would have loved to see Talia as a background character. A shy girl that Bruce noticed, and they shared a night together. In the end, Bruce would have learned she was the daughter of Ra's.
I didn't like the fact that Scarecrow was included in Batman's origin story. I like to believe that there is a time line of events that happen in the Batman universe, and Scarecrow should come along much later in Batman's crime fighting life. But, Scarecrow was included, or Jonathan Crane in a mask was.
I also didn't like Scarecrow's "origin". Scarecrow is a powerful character, but in Batman Begins, he's nothing more than a nut working for Ra's Al Ghul. I like Professor Jonathan Crane's origin much better as seen in Batman/Scarecrow: Year One.
Prof. Hugh Strange might have worked in Scarecrow's place, but not Jonathan Crane.
I would have loved to see a Batman movie that featured Scarecrow as the main villain, with maybe some lesser known psychos in the background (The Mad Hatter, The Ventriloquist)
Other than the problems with the villains, I liked the movie, but Scarecrow's remake really let me down.
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Post by Eric on May 1, 2007 17:49:54 GMT -5
Hmm. Maybe you should have named this thread "what I would have changed in Batman Begins", that may get some conversation going and may end potential argueing.
I agree with you on the fact that Scarecrow was wasted. Hes one of my most favorite rogues, he could have easily been the main nemesis. I personally would have loved to see how both Burton or Schumacher handled him, just for curiosity. I also feel that Talia should have somehow been in Begins, she is a major part of the history of Bruce/Batman and Ra's. As far as the timeline thing, it really didnt bother me too much. Scarecrow was fairly early in the Batman comics tho (Worlds Finest #3 1941), however Ras was in the 70's. The thing is, with Nolan at the helm and his particular directing style, we're not going to get the fancy costumed villains, so I guess we'll just have to sit tight and see what he does come up with.
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Post by lamplighter on May 2, 2007 6:39:35 GMT -5
It was a good movie, it just had an Elseworlds feel to me.
The Scarecrow is one of my favorites, and I was hoping that we would see the comic style version of the dark character, but we got a man in a mask.
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Post by dhunter333 on May 2, 2007 18:11:07 GMT -5
i personally didnt like the tumbler i like it now, and am used to it but i didnt like batman "flying on rooftops" i also didnt get why batman chose to run over the police car with the 2 cops in it, making enemies of the cops he could've easily gone around them if you watch the scene again i didnt like the nice coat part i didnt like the little kid getting the gadget i didnt like the bat sonar where they all came to cover for batman (i know it was in year one, but still...) besides that i was perfect
scarecrow might not have been WASTED since i'm sure he'll be back briefly in TDK
i loved having joe chill there..............no more jack napier killing his parents
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Post by Batlaw on May 2, 2007 21:10:36 GMT -5
I certainly have my share of negative "issues" with Begins. That said I have an overall posative opinion of the movie. I may be one of the very few, but I still dont find the Tumbler half as AWESOME as everyone else seems to? I'm not saying I HATE it, but I dont get it and would change many things about it. The main thing that bothers me is how incredibly impractical it is. As with other portians of his arsenal. I hated "the kid" and every scene with him is cringe inducing (God bless him : ) Didnt care for the "nice coat" bits either. Many several scenes or at least dialog played "forced" to me... and I'm just refering to those staring Kattie Holmes lol Still dont know what I think about Chill getting caught and killed the way he did. Wish Gordon had been fleshed out more and better. Same with Alfred in certain ways. The suit Too much "realism"
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Post by lamplighter on May 2, 2007 22:07:49 GMT -5
Batman being chased by the cops on the rooftops was silly and stupid. Bruce Wayne wants to protect Gotham, yet he'll indanger many lives by leading the cops on a dangerous chase. Sure.
The Tumbler was cool for a Year One Batmobile. I would like to see something better, yet more real in TDK.
I hope Scarecrow returns with a costume in a future movie. Nothing cartoonish, but something dark and twisted (I like the Western preacher look from the later animated Batman 'toons) A dark suit, the mask, a hat, and a long, black trenchcoat would work well.
I really liked the movie, but I feel it was an Elseworlds tale.
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Post by dhunter333 on May 3, 2007 23:26:16 GMT -5
truthfully i feel as if batman begins is canon not sure about chill, i kind of recall in the comics that batman tried to find him years later and he was killed somehow before batman could confront him? kind of like in begins
i feel as if batman returns, batman forever, and batman & robin were Batman Returns...An Elseworlds Story if you look at it like that it is quite a good movie same with the crappy series, Birds of Prey if it is told Birds of Prey...An Elseworlds Story, i find it bearable
doesnt work for the catwoman rip off movie tho...
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Post by ashtonjaymz on May 5, 2007 14:15:59 GMT -5
Well, I love BEGINS, it's amazing. I am annoyed that Talia wasn't included, but I can see why they didn't... there wouldn't have enough time to develop her character.
But one thing that annoyed me was how Crane's gas affected everyone at the end... why were they walking so slowly, like extras from a George Romero zombie film, working together to attack Batman? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to completely contradict what we've seen of the drugs' effects before... shouldn't they have been running around, screaming they're heads off?
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Post by Jack-Ups on May 5, 2007 14:24:49 GMT -5
Well, I love BEGINS, it's amazing. I am annoyed that Talia wasn't included, but I can see why they didn't... there wouldn't have enough time to develop her character. But one thing that annoyed me was how Crane's gas affected everyone at the end... why were they walking so slowly, like extras from a George Romero zombie film, working together to attack Batman? Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to completely contradict what we've seen of the drugs' effects before... shouldn't they have been running around, screaming they're heads off? [glow=red,2,300] Due to the fact that the Begins faer gas actually scared people, if you were scared out of your mind would you be running around or walking slowly as hell due to be scared of everything, plus there were people running about you just need to look , lol[/glow]
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Post by ashtonjaymz on May 6, 2007 17:39:29 GMT -5
LOL, good point... Thank you. ;D
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baTT
Legions Of Gothamite
Chillin like a Villain!
Posts: 87
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Post by baTT on May 8, 2007 15:52:17 GMT -5
You know, we could always have Joel Schumacher do more Batman Movies. That being said, its hard to please everyone all the time. Personally I think that The Ventriloquist is a great character and not someone that would be stuck as a second string. That is just how I think though, it doesn't mean the next person will like him.
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Post by MuksC on Aug 26, 2007 16:20:24 GMT -5
slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but we all know that Begins wasn't a prequel to the 1989 movie don't we? we all know that Begins is a completely new franchise and a reboot of Batman, not connected to the 4 Burton/Schumacher movies, yes? well some idiot on youtube insists that Begins is a direct prequel to Batman'89, because the last scene of Begins introduces The Joker, which we then see in BM'89. I have explained to him all the inconsistencies of his clearly wrong theory (Joe Chill killed Bruce's parents in the comics and in Begins, The Joker killed them in the '89 movie, so clearly Begins can't be a prequel to it) but he insists that he's right. he thinks Begins is is wrong because it said Chill killed the Waynes, and he thinks The Joker killing them is "correct". I pointed out that in the comics, the actual history of Batman, that it was Chill who killed them. I also told him that they only rewrote the history that The Joker kill the Waynes in the '89 movie because of the age difference betwwen Keaton and Nicholson, so there would be something that tied Bruce's hatred for Joker to his parents death. I also told him that Bale and Nolan clearly said that it was not a prequel to the other movies, and they said so in all the press they did before the release of Begins, but he's no convinced. they wanted us to look at the new movies with a clear mind as if the other 4 movies didn't exist. his name is bigbill1991, see if you can talk some sense into him, i've tried my best: Click
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Post by snooch2dnooch on Aug 26, 2007 17:52:07 GMT -5
slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but we all know that Begins wasn't a prequel to the 1989 movie don't we? we all know that Begins is a completely new franchise and a reboot of Batman, not connected to the 4 Burton/Schumacher movies, yes? well some idiot on youtube insists that Begins is a direct prequel to Batman'89, because the last scene of Begins introduces The Joker, which we then see in BM'89. I have explained to him all the inconsistencies of his clearly wrong theory (Joe Chill killed Bruce's parents in the comics and in Begins, The Joker killed them in the '89 movie, so clearly Begins can't be a prequel to it) but he insists that he's right. he thinks Begins is is wrong because it said Chill killed the Waynes, and he thinks The Joker killing them is "correct". I pointed out that in the comics, the actual history of Batman, that it was Chill who killed them. I also told him that they only rewrote the history that The Joker kill the Waynes in the '89 movie because of the age difference betwwen Keaton and Nicholson, so there would be something that tied Bruce's hatred for Joker to his parents death. I also told him that Bale and Nolan clearly said that it was not a prequel to the other movies, and they said so in all the press they did before the release of Begins, but he's no convinced. they wanted us to look at the new movies with a clear mind as if the other 4 movies didn't exist. his name is bigbill1991, see if you can talk some sense into him, i've tried my best: Clicklet him be, o my brother. those kinds of people will always believe they are correct and will never listen to reason. besides, how lame does it get fighting over this kind of stuff? and, on topic with this thread, my real only gripe was katie holmes. i wish they had made a twist and, like you find out ra's is really liam neeson, i was waiting for her to be like, "i'm actually talia...". also, no dent and no selina made me bummed.
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Post by All Star Batman on Aug 26, 2007 19:41:48 GMT -5
slightly unrelated to the topic at hand, but we all know that Begins wasn't a prequel to the 1989 movie don't we? we all know that Begins is a completely new franchise and a reboot of Batman, not connected to the 4 Burton/Schumacher movies, yes? well some idiot on youtube insists that Begins is a direct prequel to Batman'89, because the last scene of Begins introduces The Joker, which we then see in BM'89. I have explained to him all the inconsistencies of his clearly wrong theory (Joe Chill killed Bruce's parents in the comics and in Begins, The Joker killed them in the '89 movie, so clearly Begins can't be a prequel to it) but he insists that he's right. he thinks Begins is is wrong because it said Chill killed the Waynes, and he thinks The Joker killing them is "correct". I pointed out that in the comics, the actual history of Batman, that it was Chill who killed them. I also told him that they only rewrote the history that The Joker kill the Waynes in the '89 movie because of the age difference betwwen Keaton and Nicholson, so there would be something that tied Bruce's hatred for Joker to his parents death. I also told him that Bale and Nolan clearly said that it was not a prequel to the other movies, and they said so in all the press they did before the release of Begins, but he's no convinced. they wanted us to look at the new movies with a clear mind as if the other 4 movies didn't exist. his name is bigbill1991, see if you can talk some sense into him, i've tried my best: ClickI've put up with my share of idiots like this too. Frustrating isn't it? What's also frustrating to me are the people who thought Batman & Robin was a good movie and better than Batman Begins, and that Clooney was a good Batman and Arnold was a good Freeze. Once I said Batman & Robin sucked, and this girl countered by saying "You suck." There's just no hope for these people.
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Post by crazyhatter on Aug 26, 2007 20:19:10 GMT -5
I've put up with my share of idiots like this too. Frustrating isn't it? What's also frustrating to me are the people who thought Batman & Robin was a good movie and better than Batman Begins, and that Clooney was a good Batman and Arnold was a good Freeze. Once I said Batman & Robin sucked, and this girl countered by saying "You suck." There's just no hope for these people. I agree Clooney was pure cheese in the movie, but with the right director and script I think he could have been a good Bats
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Post by snooch2dnooch on Aug 26, 2007 20:43:05 GMT -5
I agree Clooney was pure cheese in the movie, but with the right director and script I think he could have been a good Bats He had the chin...
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Post by BruceBatman on Aug 26, 2007 22:39:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with that point too! With great crew Clooney could have been better.
Bust as for Problems with Batman Begins, I have none! I loved it! I agree the whole Scarecrow thing could have been better but it doesn't bug me too much!
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Post by MuksC on Aug 27, 2007 14:18:58 GMT -5
yeah you're right, there's no point in arguing with idiots like that, especially somewhere like youtube where it just ends up as a swearing and insult-fest. it's so frustrating though that someone can just dismiss fact and quotes given by the people who made the films, in favour of his own nonsensical opinions, which are just plain wrong! as for Begins, i generally loved it, but wasn't too happy with the plot concerning the way the toxin was administered. but the one major problem i have is with the editing and how they messed up the scenes with the policeman who says "at least tell me what it looks like....never mind..." during the main chase sequence. the same cop already told Batman to turn off his engine on top of the carpark, so why is he then asking what the guy they're all supposed to chase looks like? I think that scene was probably supposed to go earlier in the sequence, and then the carpark scene would follow, but in editing they must have changed it around to make it fit better, but either didn't notice this huge blunder, or just hoped no-one else would notice it as it was too late to re-shoot it with another actor. the "turn off your engine" cop: then the "at least tell me what it looks like" cop: and I wish they had got someone like Jennifer Connelly to be Rachel from the start, so we could have continuity with actors across the movies.
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Post by The Dark Knight on Aug 27, 2007 15:25:23 GMT -5
The only thing that really disappointed me in this movie was Rachel Holmes and that darned little kid. Sure he's a kid, but Nolan could have gotten a better actor, and thank goodness for Maggie next year! Its not that Katie is a horrible actress, she just wasnt convincing this time around.
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Post by All Star Batman on Aug 27, 2007 16:02:21 GMT -5
The only thing that really disappointed me in this movie was Rachel Holmes and that darned little kid. Sure he's a kid, but Nolan could have gotten a better actor, and thank goodness for Maggie next year! Its not that Katie is a horrible actress, she just wasnt convincing this time around. Well, she was being brainwashed by Cruise at the time.
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Post by Jack-Ups on Aug 27, 2007 18:13:14 GMT -5
yeah you're right, there's no point in arguing with idiots like that, especially somewhere like youtube where it just ends up as a swearing and insult-fest. it's so frustrating though that someone can just dismiss fact and quotes given by the people who made the films, in favour of his own nonsensical opinions, which are just plain wrong! as for Begins, i generally loved it, but wasn't too happy with the plot concerning the way the toxin was administered. but the one major problem i have is with the editing and how they messed up the scenes with the policeman who says "at least tell me what it looks like....never mind..." during the main chase sequence. the same cop already told Batman to turn off his engine on top of the carpark, so why is he then asking what the guy they're all supposed to chase looks like? I think that scene was probably supposed to go earlier in the sequence, and then the carpark scene would follow, but in editing they must have changed it around to make it fit better, but either didn't notice this huge blunder, or just hoped no-one else would notice it as it was too late to re-shoot it with another actor. the "turn off your engine" cop: then the "at least tell me what it looks like" cop: and I wish they had got someone like Jennifer Connelly to be Rachel from the start, so we could have continuity with actors across the movies. I loved how the gas got about, it was harder to realize ,which made it more beilable and likea mystery and lol how did you notice that guy lol Ive watched it a ton and it never bothered me so i never picked up on it lol I think the kid served the purpose I had no problems with begins, part from idiots saying the kid could then become robin!
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Post by Batlaw on Aug 27, 2007 18:21:14 GMT -5
I have more than my share of "problems" with Begins, but nothing really any more objectionable than I find in most movies and I'm able to overlook them here for the most part. I just had and always will wish for more from a Batman movie (one that will surely never be made). The little things that really just bug the heck out of me though in Begins, are also "the Kid" and Katie Holmes. The kid was unecessary, bad, cliche writing coupled with miserable dialog and performance. Holmes' performance didnt exactly ruin the movie for me. Although I did find some of her scenes laughable, its mostly that she was simply so flat out wrong for this movie and that role from the start. That plus you know the film maker(s) knew it too and were undoubtedly *strongly encouraged to use her anyway makes it all the more anoying.
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baTT
Legions Of Gothamite
Chillin like a Villain!
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Post by baTT on Aug 27, 2007 19:18:05 GMT -5
Refering to the kid, are you guys talking about the one that played Bruce as a child?
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Post by Batlaw on Aug 27, 2007 20:17:47 GMT -5
Refering to the kid, are you guys talking about the one that played Bruce as a child? No we're reffering to the random littke boy in the Narrows... the one Batman gave the night scope too etc.
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Post by snooch2dnooch on Aug 27, 2007 20:53:12 GMT -5
that kid must die. but the kid who played young bruce was brilliant!
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Post by MuksC on Aug 28, 2007 6:01:12 GMT -5
about Holmes, i didn't like the way she shook her head left to right uncontrollably while giving Bruce the "it's not who you are underneath..." speech. look at it again, it just looks weird, her head keeps going left to right, then there's a random up and down motion with it.
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Post by coliv1977 on Aug 28, 2007 8:51:47 GMT -5
I really like a lot of the points lamplighter makes. I never thought about Hugo Strange instead of Crane as head of Arkham. That's the way it should've been! I still didn't like the Ducard/Ra's twist. I just didn't like it/get it. I also did not like the fact that Crane was basically a henchman for Ra's. They each have their own individual stories and they didn't have to be in the same movie. I agree with the point about Talia. I did not like Scarecrow being in Batman's origin instead of Joker. I think that timeline is all screwed up. Having said all this, I just saw the movie again recently, and I liked it much more the second time. I like Nolan's tone. I like the atmosphere. He just needs to work on his timelines and continuity.
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Post by J-Man on Aug 28, 2007 13:09:09 GMT -5
I hated-- absolutely hated-- that stupid microwave emitter. Couldn't they have just poisoned the water supply? It didn't make a lot of sense to me as to why it was there.
Rachel was annoying, but she was easy to overlook. Liam Neeson was a very boring Ra's Al Ghul, if you ask me. He was very boring-- though I guess boring is better than garish (like villains from previous installments).
But really, those are minor issues. Hopefully the kinks will be gone next time around.
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Post by BruceBatman on Aug 31, 2007 19:32:59 GMT -5
Yes that was a good idea for Hugo Strange. But I don't really mind about the whole cop things MuksC! I love the little kid from the Narrows that Batman gives his scope too! But I wish that was me!LOL I also really like the little Bruce too!!
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Post by snooch2dnooch on Sept 1, 2007 0:33:43 GMT -5
we never got a, "well, played, detective."
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