DC All-star: Batman & Robin Color Covers pg 9

[Bill9000]

Personally, I'm going to be keeping an eye on this All-Stars business. I hope it'll be all they're toting it to be, but with the state of comics these days, the doubts still plague me.

[reideen1313]

reideen1313 said:

I've heard that the writer for the Jim Lee book will be none other than Mr. Loeb.

Sorry guys - new scuttlebutt on this is Loeb MIGHT be going exclusive to Marvel and he won't be on the book with Lee.

[HUSH]

reideen1313 said:

Sorry guys - new scuttlebutt on this is Loeb MIGHT be going exclusive to Marvel and he won't be on the book with Lee.

*deep breath...*NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

[reideen1313]

As a matter of fact, Rich Johnson's column has a poll for who should replace him on the book:

VOTE FOR ROBIN

Well, it does seem as if Jeph Loeb is no longer writing that Jim Lee "All-Star Batman & Robin" series that he'd been so long associated with. Could he being going to Marvel after all? I hear that previous denials are now only being repeated with coughs behind the mouth.

So I've decided I'm going to choose the replacement writer. Seriously, you're all going to vote for the writer you'd most like to see write the book and I will personally ensure it happens. Don't believe me? Let's play. E-mail your favoured All-Star Batman And Robin writer from the following list to richjohnston *at* gmail.com

Neal Adams - a keen rewriter of scripts and seen as rather definitive
Ed Brubaker - who gave him a vertigo urban edge
Tim Burton - who brought the Bat to the screen and defined a style
Alan Grant - who gave Batman a touch of Dreddian satire
Dave Gibbons - world's finest
Bob Kane - if by name only
Frank Miller - the darkest of knights and the definer of visions
Alan Moore - who disowned his own version
Grant Morrison - who engaged in a battle of symbolism
Greg Rucka - who no man followed
Chuck Dixon - who broke the back of Batman
John Byrne - who made him think clean thoughts, chum

I'm totally serious here. Result next week in the Rumour Awards. I'll use my Paul Levitz voodoo doll. Then expect the announcement from DC later next year.

Adam Hughes will either be drawing "All-Star Batman & Robin" after Jim Lee finishes his arc, or "Wonder Woman." The decision was being made last week.

[HUSH]

HUSH said:

*deep breath...*NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

Well, I'll be still happy if they get someone at least as good a writer as Jeph Loeb; better, if that's humanly possible. ;D

[CConn]

reideen1313 said:

Sorry guys - new scuttlebutt on this is Loeb MIGHT be going exclusive to Marvel and he won't be on the book with Lee.

Loeb to Marvel exclusively?!

*dies a little inside*

[JotaEse]

1st-there ISN'T a better than Loeb right now...no offense to Geoff or Devin.

Secondly-Heph @ Marvel? He is a DC writer...really...I like his and Tim Sale's work @ Marvel (at least the one of the 3 I have red-Spider-man Blue) but there aren't enough wrothwhile, Iconic characters he could write there....I mean, right now all of Marvel's characters are getting kinda tired while DC's are picking it up. If I had to drop a company...it's be Marvel. There's no book I would REALLY miss all that much.

[HUSH]

*Just taking this in:* And Loeb might go permanently to Marvel! That means no proper Hush sequel! Ohhh... *dies of grief*

[HUSH]

JotaEse said:

1st-there ISN'T a better than Loeb right now...

Exactly. Therefore, if this goes thru, DC is SCREWED!

[Arsenal]

Ok, I'm open to this book, but the whole idea that the mass public has a subconscious need for Silver Age versions of these characters is daft. Like the Giant Penny that Jim Lee mentions missing. Who in the general public actually remembers or knows the Giant Penny? Was it on the Adam West show? Was it in the movies? Cause otherwise it doesn't really matter to casual fans. It only matters to comics fans.

Silver age kinda... stopped mattering once this guy called Bruce Timm showed up. Now, that's classic. Let's not forget works by Tim Burton and Millar and Gough. And you can laugh away Smallville all you want, but if you think anyone in the general public wants a near omnipotent Superman with a dead Ma and Pa Kent, you're fooling yourselves. They're practically as important as Alfred these days.

Otherwise, I can't wait for these books. I have faith in my boy Grant Morrison, because he has said he wants to use the best of all versions of Superman. Thank god for Morrison having some vision.

[re]

This looks very cool, one question though will this take over for the regular comic of Batman, or will these books affect continuity?

[Batdan]

Arsenal said:

Ok, I'm open to this book, but the whole idea that the mass public has a subconscious need for Silver Age versions of these characters is daft. ... Silver age kinda... stopped mattering once this guy called Bruce Timm showed up.

Gotta disagree with you there, sir. There are a lot of fans who have become disenchanted with the over-the-top, cross-over-happy, soap opera that Batman has become. Paring it down will satisfy a lot of people and it won't apparently screw with the continuity so many others hold so dear.

And Timm borrowed from the Silver Age as much as he did from the modern and Golden Ages. The brilliance of that show was that unlike any other incarnation, it satisfied fans of different ages, backgrounds and interests. It was dark, yet whimsical at times. It never took itself too seriously and always respected its fans -- and the characters.

[Arsenal]

Batdan said:

Gotta disagree with you there, sir. There are a lot of fans who have become disenchanted with the over-the-top, cross-over-happy, soap opera that Batman has become. Paring it down will satisfy a lot of people and it won't apparently screw with the continuity so many others hold so dear.

And Timm borrowed from the Silver Age as much as he did from the modern and Golden Ages. The brilliance of that show was that unlike any other incarnation, it satisfied fans of different ages, backgrounds and interests. It was dark, yet whimsical at times. It never took itself too seriously and always respected its fans -- and the characters.

Yeah, but that's exactly my point. What exactly is relevant about the Giant Penny that's going to rock the mainstream media's world? Having the best traits from all versions of Batman should always be DC's goal. But telling me that the average person is longing for uber-vague comic book nostalgia just because the ARTIST and FANS are longing for comic book nostalgia is missing the point. This genre already relies way too much on nostalgia as it is.

And I agree that the general Ultimate idea is a good one. Not really the problem. The problem is that I'm being told by fans in 2004 that Silver Age DC should be an important part of my life, not to mention that it's going to save the industry. No way. I'm 24, not 54.

[Batdan]

I'm not sure anybody said anything about the Silver Age saving the industry. But why is it you have so much against it to begin with? There's a lot of great material that came out of that period. I'm curious.

[Arsenal]

My problem is comic book geek self-importance (Alex Ross) not getting that we are a small niche audience and don't really represent any general audience experience with these characters. So you can say "ooh, amen, bring back the giant penny! That's what's missing!" But it's not missing. People don't even know there ever was a giant penny. (again, just an example)

If you want to sell the general public the "classics," its Christopher Reeves, Superfriends, Linda Carter, Adam West, etc.

I think this line will probably be great, I'm just not partial to that mentality from DC creators and fans.

EDIT: to answer your question. Let's see... I'm 24, I have a whole world of other things to be interested in than older, less accessible versions of these characters in the comic medium, specifically expensive archives. It doesn't mean that I don't respect their place in the world. I just don't think it's part of my life.

[reideen1313]

What's relevant about the penny is it's history. There's a saying - if you don't remember your history, you are doomed to repeat it. Quite a few comic writers could benefit from reading the classic source material and gaining some additional insight to the character. I'd guess there are some members here that might benefit from doing the same.

The problem isn't about the silver age, it isn't about the giant penny, it's not even about the giant T-rex in the Batcave for that matter. It is about making these characters more accessible to people of all ages - like was mentioned above, Timm and Dini did an excellent job of this. If Jim Lee wants to throw fans a bone by putting the giant penny back in the book, then who does it hurt? The fact is that the comic industry is a dinosaur that is on the verge of extinction and publishers need to do something to gain new readers. Solid teams of the best writers and artists that the industry has is a step in the right direction, when attempting to correct this. Better marketing and new retail outlets is another necessity if this industry is to survive, but that's a topic for a different thread.

The way the DC universe (and Marvel for that matter) is set up currently, there's a superhero for every corner on the planet. To me, it would make things much more interesting if at least one of the silver age concepts was brought back, by putting some of these heroes on different Earths. That way, you don't have the JSA tripping over the JLE team on one of their covert operations. Superman can't just swoop in and help out anytime there's a crisis - the other heroes would have to learn to deal with things without him. That would make for much better stories IMO. With better stories, word of mouth would increase and readership would go up.

[Batdan]

See, Arsenal, I agree with you that the world sees Superman as Christopher Reeve and that's actually my point.

Why was that first movie so successful, where so many comics movies failed? It worked because the story worked on several levels: as basic, adult escapism; as childhood fantasy; as old-fashioned epic; and even as ironic satire.

Comics at their best do the same. What I am suggesting (over on the publisher-for-a-day thread) is that there is room for many different kinds of approaches.

You talk repeatedly about a dying industry. What I'm saying is that self-important comics critics shouldn't try to jam down our throats their vision of the world without acknowledging that different people enjoy comics for different reasons. What I'm saying is that the comics companies should try to be more inclusive and perhaps draw in new readers -- or lure back old ones.

Some people like multiple earths. I don't, but I understand their appeal to those who do. So why not try to find a way to accommodate them? It doesn't mean you have to blow up the whole DCU. Maybe just create a new, standalone continuity on the side to explore these ideas and stories.

Let there be the cross-over soap operas for those who want them. Let there be the whiz-bang adventures for those who want them. Let there be the urban, minimalist tales for those who want them. Why drive anyone away?

I haven't picked up a monthly comic for myself in over a decade because in my opinion they started bleeding Batman dry. But I've stayed interested through other media. I would consider going back if they just offered a stripped down version that doesn't require me to take out a bank loan to follow a story.

Cripes, the continuity nerds are out of control. Ain't nothing wrong with stories for the stories' sake.

[JotaEse]

I find it funny people talking about the "dying" comic industry that's movies are hits and that are selling (with the exception of the mid-90's when people were buying "to put their kids through college") better than ever.

Comics are selling well now. The90's, when X-men #1 set records doesn't count...people bought too many comics just to eventually make money off them. Next to that, comics are at a point as good if not better than they were in the 80's or before...they are just as popular. The comic shop I am at orders more copies of Superman/Batman, Teen Titans, Astonishing X-Men, Wanted, Jim Lee's work, etc. over the past 3 years than he had since 1997. The industry is just fine right now.

Nothing is selling 5 million copies a month...but outside the 90's no title ever has. With Supeman/Batman selling as high as it does, however...and many other titles...it's not a dinosaur or dying industry...it's an extremelly strong industry. As many people buy a copy of Superman/Batman a month as buy the newest Stephen King book...that's not bad, and there are other books doing that well!

[Batdan]

Man, what a great thread. This is what LoG is all about.

And Reideen, I'm giving you a "Say amen, brother!"

[reideen1313]

JotaEse said:

I find it funny people talking about the "dying" comic industry that's movies are hits and that are selling (with the exception of the mid-90's when people were buying "to put their kids through college") better than ever.

I never said the characters don't sell. The comics themselves don't sell like they did in the past. The characters can be successful in movies, games, TV shows and action figures, but comic readership is declining. The readership is getting older, and new readers are not picking up the hobby. That's why Marvel went to a 'no overprint' policy - to cut down on extra copies of books and eliminate waste both on their end and on the retailers end. Personally, I (and others in the industry) attribute the declining sales to the vast number of other alternative sources of recreation - tv, video games, computers, etc.

The90's, when X-men #1 set records doesn't count...people bought too many comics just to eventually make money off them.

True - I was on the retail side of the business at that time - I know exactly what drove many people to buy comics at that time and exactly what drove many businesses out of the industry after the boom died down.

Next to that, comics are at a point as good if not better than they were in the 80's or before...they are just as popular. The comic shop I am at orders more copies of Superman/Batman, Teen Titans, Astonishing X-Men, Wanted, Jim Lee's work, etc. over the past 3 years than he had since 1997. The industry is just fine right now.

I disagree. Recently, as a result of declining readership, companies have gone bankrupt (crossgen, chaos, and quite possibly soon-to-be bankrupt dreamwave) the number of titles has decreased, the distribution system has evolved into a monopoly (Diamond is the only player in the game - where as little as 12 years ago there were 4 distributors) and readers have deserted in droves.

Comic-book sales across the US reached their all-time high of $850 million in 1993 before starting to spiral downward. Like we mentioned above, speculators had raised interest in comics to a frenzy - before backing out and sending demand into the dungeon. By 1996, Marvel had filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, and by 1998 industry revenues had fallen to $375 million, according to John Miller, editorial director of ComicBuyer’s Guide and Comic & Games Retailer at Krause Publications in Iola, Wis.

US sales of comics hit bottom in 2000, at just $250 million, which is the lowest point that comics had been at since the 1938. Demand was so weak that retailers began giving shelf space once reserved for comics to better-selling trading cards and novelty items - a practice that many retailers still use and depend on the revenue from still today.

Thanks to a variety of imaginative new-product strategies (such as Free Comic Book Day, Marvel's Ultimates line, and movie tie-ins), the industry showed tentative signs of recovery in 2003, when its revenues edged up to about $260 million, according to Mr Miller. For 2004, “We could be back at around $300 million, where we were in 1997,” says Mr Miller.

Marvel has also done some creative thinking in their marketing and distribution of titles. Specifically, by packaging comics into easier-to-buy bundles for the bargain-conscious reader. Under this new program, Marvel binds multiple issues of a comic into a single softcover or hardcover book, which it can sell to chain bookstores, such as Barnes & Noble, Borders or Waldenbooks, and mass-market retailers each month for much less than the comics would cost separately. Marvel has also been doing quite a bit on the 'net to market it's books. Marvel now offers comics for free on its Web site dotcomics.marvel.com, where its primary income is from advertisers. The site has more than doubled its number of unique visitors to about 3 million a month over the past five years

Nothing is selling 5 million copies a month...but outside the 90's no title ever has. With Supeman/Batman selling as high as it does, however...and many other titles...it's not a dinosaur or dying industry...it's an extremelly strong industry. As many people buy a copy of Superman/Batman a month as buy the newest Stephen King book...that's not bad, and there are other books doing that well!

That may be - I really don't follow the sales #'s for Stephen King books - I just read them. The comic industry as it stands now, is a dying breed - a dinousaur, as I described it before. The numbers don't lie. I follow the #s and trends in this industry because having a comic store was my dream job since I was a little kid - I'm one of the lucky few that got to live my dream, and I got to do it at a relatively young age - I was only 19 - 20 when I owned my store. That said, the numbers for comic sales don't lie - sales are declining.

The numbers below are derived from the sales graphs published over the past several years in Krause Publication's COMICS RETAILER. (All figures are stated in millions of dollars.)

Month____Market Size____Market Size
________Comics Alone___Comics & TPBs
__________________________________

May-00____16.27__________18.5
Apr-00_____15.42__________17.2
Mar-00____15.36___________17.4
Feb-00_____14.45__________16.3
Jan-00_____14.28__________15.7

1999 Average_16.88_________19.18

Dec-99_____17.52__________20.3
Nov-99_____17.50__________20.1
Oct-99_____17.34___________20.3
Sep-99_____18.47__________20.4
Aug-99_____17.72__________20.0
Jul-99______17.07___________19.0
Jun-99______16.66__________18.7
May-99_____16.95__________18.6
Apr-99______16.18__________19.2
Mar-99______16.23__________18.4
Feb-99______15.17__________17.4
Jan-99______15.73__________17.8

1998 Average___17.55________20.08

Dec-98_______18.54___________20.8
Nov-98_______16.76___________21.4
Oct-98________18.70__________21.2
Sep-98_______18.18___________20.1
Aug-98_______18.49___________21.3
Jul-98________17.61___________20.1
Jun-98________17.97___________20.2
May-98_______16.97___________19.4
Apr-98________17.56___________19.7
Mar-98________17.47___________19.6
Feb-98________15.71___________18.4
Jan-98________16.66___________18.8

1997 Average___20.38__________23.12

Dec-97______22.90_____25.2
Nov-97______19.78_____23.7
Oct-97______21.83_____24.5
Sep-97______19.31_____21.7
Aug-97______20.85_____23.6
Jul-97_______20.28_____22.6
Jun-97______18.93_____21.6
May-97______18.96_____22.1
Apr-97______20.69______22.4
Mar-97______20.03_____22.9
Feb-97______19.12_____21.9
Jan-97______21.83_____25.2

Dec-96_____25.78_____29.3
Nov-96_____28.24_____33.9
Oct-96_____25.18_____29.0
Sep-96_____26.39_____29.7

Unfortunately, looking at the yearly averages, there is a clear and steady pattern of decline. For comics alone, average monthly sales declined from 20.38 million dollars in 1997 down to 16.88 million dollars in 1999--a
decline of about 17% over that three year period (with the bulk of the sales loss taking place from 1997 through 1998).

[Batdan]

Excellent info, Reideen.

All the more reason for DC to be more inclusive. This hobby will never survive if its core audience remains in Mom's basement.

As I said before, I would start buying again if DC stopped making its lines so impenetrable.

[Arsenal]

Batdan said:

See, Arsenal, I agree with you that the world sees Superman as Christopher Reeve and that's actually my point.

Why was that first movie so successful, where so many comics movies failed? It worked because the story worked on several levels: as basic, adult escapism; as childhood fantasy; as old-fashioned epic; and even as ironic satire.

Amen. But what we're talking about here is mostly tone. We're not talking about nitpicky fan details. Right? The tone, the overall idea is what I think we should all want.

[Arsenal]

Reindeen, it seems to me that you get EXACTLY what I'm saying about the medium of comics dying, and the problem. Comics are a dying medium and are not #1 in presenting these characters to the mass audience. And to about 90% of what you're saying, I say "word." But then you make the point about remembering our history. I think that's exactly my point. It's not really history ( the proverbial "giant penny," that is... or say, the stuffy white guy in the Green Lantern suit). We're talking icons here, not niche nostalgia. At this point, I would be repeating myself to explain how much more historical relevance mass media versions of these characters have than the comic incarnations.

Listen, if getting homages to classics makes you happy (as its made me happy in DC movies and cartoons for years), great. I love that the X-men movies reference stuff that only me and a few geeks will get. That's good. It reminds me of the show the Family Guy, and how the creator (Seth McFarlane) talks about how their show has way too many jokes that only 1% of the audience will get. I love being one of the few that get the joke about treatment of white characters in a Spike Lee movie. ;D But still, it's a 1% reference. That's exactly what the giant penny is. A 1% reference. That's fine, but 1% references do make an entire show. So for someone like Jim Lee to say "that's what's missing" or for Alex Ross to spend years holding this one era on a pedestal ("these were the icons, nothing else can be icons but these version"), it just shows that they are not in touch with anything but their own fandom.

[Batdan]

Arsenal said:

Amen. But what we're talking about here is mostly tone. We're not talking about nitpicky fan details. Right? The tone, the overall idea is what I think we should all want.

Absolutely. To borrow a phrase, unnecessary consistency in continuity is the hobgoblin of small minds.

My belief is that readers want different things from comics. So why not try to find a way to appeal to different types of readers? Movie studios do that. Book publishers do that. TV networks do that.

Frankly, I could care less whether there's a giant penny in the Batcave. This is about a return to basics. That doesn't mean dumbing down. It means treating both your characters and your readers with respect.

Give the continuity mavens their continuities and their Crises if they want them. But give the rest of us something else. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[JotaEse]

How many people are actually trying to make new fans? In many places comics are not available to be picked up readily in many places. So, I buy them for cousins, neices, etc. And they talk their parents into buying more. THAT'S what's needed!

[twistedangel9]

I got my mom hooked on comics...

Will Batman be his usual gloomy self?

[reideen1313]

remember how I mentioned that Loeb might be going exclusive to Marvel? Well, the Jim Lee All-Star book was supposed to be written by Loeb, right? Not anymore.

Frank Miller will be the writer of "All Star Batman & Robin," with Jim Lee on art. Expect an announcement from DC later in the year.

[gotham95]

[shadow=blue,left,300]Jeph Loeb exclusive to Marvel? Say it isn't so. [/shadow]

[HUSH]

So is Loeb going exclusive to Marvel still a "might," or has it been decided?

[twistedangel9]

Miller? That would rock.