Frank Miller's Batman

[crusader185]

I honestly don't understand why everyone loves Frank Miller's Batman. Robin is a girl, Batman is... wide, and he grrrrr's a lot. Could someone please help me understand what I am missing?

[jlavaia]

you're only referring to the Dark Knight returns. he wrote Year One which gave us the definitive first year of Batman's career. in my opinion his Batman stuff was great, but his current stuff is not. the dark knight strikes again was not as good as the original and all-star is also not that great. he's somewhat credited with bringing Batman into the darkness and making him a darker character, though Denny O'Neill and Neal Adams did it first. read the Dark Knight Returns and Year One and then you'll understand why we like Frank Miller.

[BruceBatman]

Why do we like Frank Miller? Why do we like Frank Miller?
Because he's awesome! He writes and illustrates many controversial Batmans!
I just don't like the old Frank Miller, I like his new work too!
Without pieces like The Dark Knight Returns, many comic legends would not be! Like Jim Lee!
TDKR is what got him into comics!

If you want to know why we think (more like know) he's good, check out his stuff: All Star Batman and Robin, TDKR, Batman:Year One, and so much more!

[All Star Batman]

And he has a new project coming out called "Holy Terror Batman!" which features Batman fighting Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.

[crazyhatter]

batfan1990 said:

And he has a new project coming out called "Holy Terror Batman!" which features Batman fighting Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.

Oh boy I can't wait...insert sarcarsm.

[BruceBatman]

crazyhatter said:

batfan1990 said:

And he has a new project coming out called "Holy Terror Batman!" which features Batman fighting Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden.

Oh boy I can't wait...insert sarcarsm.

Yeah, what crazyhatter said! Although i LOVE Frank Miller, this sounds terrible!!

[snooch2dnooch]

frank miller is washed-up and needs to get off the bottle.

[BruceBatman]

Hey! I am a Frank Miller fan and I think he is as good as he always was!

[jlavaia]

i'm a Frank Miller fan too. now i don't think he's washed up as snooch does, but he is definitely not what he was. his writing now is no where near what it was on Daredevil and in TDKR. and i really doubt it'll ever get there again, which is a shame.

[False Face]

I like the idea he is trying to set with All Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder, but his story is taking awhile to really get things going. So far he's just been introducing characters and they haven't done anything pass that. However, I've enjoyed all the issues so far and look forward to the next ones. It does sound like something will get going here soon, even if it isn't as good as Miller's earlier work. I'm also a fan of his Batman: Year One.

[snooch2dnooch]

hey, i'm a frank miller fan too....of his earlier work. batman year one is one of the best stories ever written, and i know i'm in the minority when i say that year one is better than dark knight returns, which is also a masterpiece. but after sin city, everything he's done, weather it be writing or art, he's been trying to do it sin city style, but wayyyy more over-the-top. i mean, god, look at THE SPIRIT movie poster. what a shame he can't realize people don't always want his stupid bizarre comparisons (her legs went from here to iwo jima). he WAS one of the best...WAS.

[arkhaminmate]

The only recent piece of crap Miller's done was TDKSA, All Star's great, & I love the idea of "Holy Terror, Batman!" He'll make it work, I've been waiting for something like this for a good long while.

[All Star Batman]

arkhaminmate said:

The only recent piece of crap Miller's done was TDKSA, All Star's great, & I love the idea of "Holy Terror, Batman!" He'll make it work, I've been waiting for something like this for a good long while.

Wasn't it announced in 2005? And yet we're still waiting for it. When the hell is it coming out?

[False Face]

I would think of it as being even worst than the wait for All Star #5; of course, my understanding for that delay was Jim Lee, but what is taking so long for something that was announced in 2005?

[Batlaw]

I think Frank Miller is more of an "idea man" (and often a good one), more-so than I consider him an actual "great" writer.
His concepts often have some or plenty of potential, but he fails in his execution. Mainly page to page story telling and dialog.
Im sure to be roasted, but I basically consider Miller quite "overrated".

[snooch2dnooch]

batlaw said:

I think Frank Miller is more of an "idea man" (and often a good one), more-so than I consider him an actual "great" writer.
His concepts often have some or plenty of potential, but he fails in his execution. Mainly page to page story telling and dialog.
Im sure to be roasted, but I basically consider Miller quite "overrated".

well-put, sir!

[jlavaia]

the thing about Miller is that he's not just a writer, he's also an artist. he writes more than draws now, but in his prime of the 80s he did both and did them well. he is definitely not what he was 20-25 years ago of coarse. read Daredevil 168-191 where he wrote and draw each of those issues. read TDKR where he wrote and draw all of those issues. those 2 things are the reason he is great. sure "Year One" was great too and his art on Wolverine was great, but Daredevil and TDKR made his career. you can't call someone overrated who only writes on 1 title and is semi-retired from the comic industry. his work now is very lackluster and no one is saying otherwise, except for all-star fans. i think people think that he can still write like he did on his Daredevil run and that's what everyone is expecting with All-Star. unfortunately that won't happen, so we're stuck with hollywood Miller. wants all his work on the screen now, i guess he forgot about his promise of never allowing his comics to be made into movies after the Robocop movies bombed.

[Batlaw]

you can't call someone overrated who only writes on 1 title and is semi-retired from the comic industry.

I consider him overrated because personally I feel even his best work (throughout his career) has been over hyped and over praised to some degree. Regardless, I consider him greatly talented and have enjoyed much of his work... just not all of it, nor to the degree many others seem to.
I basically feel the same way about Miller's art.
Miller has relied on being over the top and made it his signature / style. Personally I think he's used it as a total crutch.
"Over the top" is only effective and appealing in small doses. In the right projects in the right places and at the right moments.

[BruceBatman]

Yes, Batlaw, you are right, some works of his are better than others and sometimes his work plain old stinks.
But you have to admit, the majority of his work is great material!

[snooch2dnooch]

brucebatman3 said:

But you have to admit, the majority of his work is great material!

yes and no. even when he was both writer and artist on daredevil, his work was very sporadic. a lot of times it wasn't that great, but when it was good, it was the best. but i dunno, with me, i've neevr cared for his artwork. when he did daredevil and wolverine, i always felt his art looked very generic. on TDKR it was just kind of odd, and it only worked for me sometimes. i love the way sin city looks, and it really is a mesmerizing piece of art...but it does get old. and if i flip through DKSA, i wanna hurl. the alternate overs to ALL STAR aren't anything special either. for artwork, miller has never been the best (i prefer the works of Sale, Bolland, and Mazzuchelli, personally).

as a writer, miller hit his peak between the late 80's and the early 90's. the stuff he did before and after has never reached what he did then.

[jlavaia]

snooch2dnooch said:

even when he was both writer and artist on daredevil, his work was very sporadic. a lot of times it wasn't that great, but when it was good, it was the best.

that entire Daredevil run was great and helped to make Daredevil into what he is now and has been for 20 years. there was nothing spoadic at all about it, it was fast paced, kept you guessing, and had those moments of amazement that you just didn't see coming. i remember when he killed off Elektra and couldn't believe it, he created her only about 10 issues earlier and then just killed her. of coarse he brought her back but you didn't know it at that moment. look at the stuff he did with that run:
- created Elektra
- killed Elektra
- made Bullseye one of Marvel's best villains
- strung out Karen Page
- brought back Elektra

i would say that's the kind of stuff any writer would want to do in a run. i mean creating a character that sticks around and is popular for 25 years is something special in itself. turning a joke villain into a company wide threat is big. putting a main supporting character and love interest on drugs and starting the wheels for her selling the main characters's secret identity was insane. so no, there was nothing sporadic at all about those 23 issues.

[snooch2dnooch]

well, sir, i think i'm allowed my opinions, and yes, when he was starting on Daredevil, he was quite sporadic in QUALITY

[jlavaia]

snooch2dnooch said:

well, sir, i think i'm allowed my opinions, and yes, when he was starting on Daredevil, he was quite sporadic in QUALITY

i'm not bashing your opinions at all, but when he started on Daredevil he didn't do the writing and didn't have the creative control that he had 9 issues later when he was writing and drawing and was able to tell the story as he wanted to. it was also his first regular title and basically first full time job in comics. he's responsible for making Daredevil as popular as he is now. when he took over writing and drawing, Daredevil was on the verge of being cancelled.

[snooch2dnooch]

yeah, i know all that dude, and you're right, he saved the title and did stuff other writers only dream of doing, but he wasn't that consistent

[snooch2dnooch]

i think the problem is that we've all seen the potential greatness miller is able to achieve. so reading his work from the past few years can be very frustrating when you know what he is capable of.

[Batlaw]

snooch2dnooch said:

i think the problem is that we've all seen the potential greatness miller is able to achieve. so reading his work from the past few years can be very frustrating when you know what he is capable of.

Quite. His work of recent times reads so incredibly lazy and careless. He has no interest, heart or passion whatsoever for what hes doing. Living off inflated reputation and ego and relying soley on "name value" alone. Sad. Perhaps his best work was on Daredevil. I remember LOVING his Daredevil origin mini and thought it was pinacle! However re-reading it much later, I couldnt see what I though was so great? Didnt "hold up". I feel that way about most of his pieces. They dont comepletely stand up to time IMO. DKR and Year One included for me. Not that they arent or werent good or even great pieces Nec.

[BruceBatman]

snooch2dnooch said:

i think the problem is that we've all seen the potential greatness miller is able to achieve. so reading his work from the past few years can be very frustrating when you know what he is capable of.

Wow! You said it! You took the words right out of my mouth!
That is so true, and ultimately what it is!
When people read such great works as "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Batman:Year One", they grow an expectation of greatness for Frank Miller. Then when new works come out, and they don't live up to these expectations, they say he doesn't have his touch or he's too old to write.
Which inn my opinion is crap! I think all of FM's work is great! Yes, some are WAY better than others and you can not compare them to anything else, but his other work is still good. I don't throw it away cause it's not "The Dark Knight Returns 2". I actually take it as a clean slate, as if it was a new writer. And he never lets me down, I love him and his style!

[blackmask]

crusader185 said:

I honestly don't understand why everyone loves Frank Miller's Batman. Robin is a girl, Batman is... wide, and he grrrrr's a lot. Could someone please help me understand what I am missing?

I agree, and everything looked square.

[blackmask]

I hate his artwork.

[blackmask]

snooch2dnooch said:

i think the problem is that we've all seen the potential greatness miller is able to achieve. so reading his work from the past few years can be very frustrating when you know what he is capable of.

good piont.